Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2022-06-12 | 2022-06-14 →
01:44 phf << similar meaning also apec, or some other brand?
01:44 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-18 14:47:36 asciilifeform: mats: bought similar one recently, not installed yet
01:44 phf i'm going to crowd source all the home improvements
~ 54 minutes ~
02:39 asciilifeform phf: 'ispring ph100'. but this aint esp. useful info, given as asciilifeform not tested the thing just yet, still gotta plumb for it
02:43 * asciilifeform finally has, lol, hot water in new pad
~ 43 minutes ~
03:27 phf kek
~ 54 minutes ~
04:21 asciilifeform phf: not found any useful markings on the rack btw
~ 34 minutes ~
04:56 verisimilitude I didn't need GDB; I reviewed the program hours later and noticed the flaw.
~ 1 hours 58 minutes ~
06:54 verisimilitude Would anyone care to play with the toy I'll be releasing later today?
~ 2 hours 15 minutes ~
09:10 crtdaydreams << where can I learn more about this in particular?
09:10 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-12 10:05:24 signpost: << this is more/less the nietzschean algo. most people stop with his pronouncement of god being dead, rather than continuing to this.
09:10 crtdaydreams << can you elaborate, or point me in the direction of perhaps related /thread
09:10 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-12 10:05:42 signpost: question of what's one's relationship to time.
09:11 crtdaydreams I haven't delved into nieztsche, I think perhaps it would be a worthwhile endeavour.
09:15 crtdaydreams I'm at the crossroads between "checking out" or some form of self-betterment. I can't escape my fuckups.
~ 5 hours 10 minutes ~
14:26 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: what kinda fuckups?
~ 1 hours 30 minutes ~
15:56 phf my pops was a great man, great man. he told me, son, if you're going to fuck, fuck up! what a great man! thank you! try out buffet!
~ 39 minutes ~
16:35 mats $ticker btc usd
~ 35 minutes ~
17:10 asciilifeform mats: bot moved to #p
17:14 phf mats: :>
17:14 bitbot (pest) 2022-06-13 busybot[asciilifeform]: Current BTC price in USD: $23544.74
17:14 asciilifeform mats: consider standing up a station, it'll take you < 10min likely
17:18 signpost phf: lol
17:28 mats
17:30 shinohai << ditto @ crtdaydreams
17:30 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-13 13:12:39 asciilifeform: mats: consider standing up a station, it'll take you < 10min likely
17:31 signpost mats: get in pest already
17:32 signpost crtdaydreams:
17:33 signpost but before you read anything, decide to be your own ally vs enemy.
17:33 signpost if you can't do that, isn't shit to read that will fix you.
17:34 signpost you live somewhere even further along the emasculation continuum than I do. find the viruses the enemy put between your ears and destroy them.
17:34 signpost then sure, read.
17:34 signpost it was a turning in my own life when I realized that I was doing the enemy's work for him by destroying myself by pieces.
17:35 signpost consider also what it implies that it takes constant practice to destroy oneself.
17:36 signpost we're not as feeble as current religions claim.
17:36 verisimilitude I live further along the emacsulation continuum than anyone else here.
17:36 asciilifeform signpost: asciilifeform aint certain that he agrees w/ 'mp model' behind 'wai redditus is how it is'; entirely possib. that simply comes from 'glue trap' of 'learned helplessness' ( recall in e.g. 'doom' , frustration where 'cannot shoot holes in walls, even with 'bfg''. ) if no avail. action has any visible effect, you get characteristic 'prisoner in solitary' psychology, no physiological problems req'd
17:36 signpost M-x take-hold-of-thine-own-sack
17:36 asciilifeform verisimilitude: how's that?
17:37 verisimilitude Read it carefully, asciilifeform.
17:37 asciilifeform lol
17:37 signpost asciilifeform: I think we agree; earlier you said it was unclear how many redditus could be men.
17:38 signpost I'm saying it takes the empire constant reinforcement to enfeeble them.
17:38 signpost odd it takes so much work if they're born trash.
17:39 * asciilifeform models redditism as a 'soft' variant of alcoholism
17:39 * signpost considers homo sapiens the species that conquered earth
17:39 signpost mhm
~ 29 minutes ~
18:08 punkman when you have certain environmental factors, you get homo redditus
18:09 asciilifeform punkman: asciilifeform suspects that main envir. factor is same as for homo alcoholicus -- 'life in dead end'
18:09 punkman also lack of beatings
18:10 asciilifeform punkman: in orc world, errybody beaten, still drinks
18:12 punkman asciilifeform: are the glue-huffing nigerians a homo redditus?
18:12 asciilifeform punkman: per this model, defo
18:13 asciilifeform for that matter, even marx's 'lumpens'
18:14 asciilifeform 'redditus' simply latest twist on technologially cost-optimized 'bonsai human'
18:14 asciilifeform product of current reich's 'soft, humane' variant of genocide
18:16 asciilifeform ( see also e.g. )
18:16 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-25 13:45:55 asciilifeform: in the most extreme case of this -- say you wanted to live in current reich today w/ same standard of living as e.g. engineer in 1900. would need to spend coupla $mil / y.
18:16 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-25 19:23:44 asciilifeform: lizards in usa 'solved' the 'unions problem' by getting rid of labour, creating caste of lumpens on left side of bell curve and caste of paper shufflers on right side, with the sleight-of-hand moar than sufficing to ramp down expectations of life for all of'em
18:18 asciilifeform in last century, when plebes demanded to actually win from the gains of industrialization, lizards organized 2 world wars for'em. would've a third, but shat pants; instead retooled to psychoengineering ('bonsaikittening') and the current products of this are the subj on display.
18:19 punkman the glue-huffing congolesan is quite cost-optimized. the homo redditus/NEET/bai-lan seems quite the drag on community resources
18:20 asciilifeform punkman: how's that? reddit victim eats mcfood, lives in equiv. of prison cell typically, and the reddit per se maybe coupla kW-hr/mo.
18:20 phf i don't think that orcs are strictly homo redditus, but asciilifeform is often intentionally not an entomologist, so he lumps everyone useless into same bucket
18:20 punkman perhaps could say redditus is "our-democracy-optimized"
18:20 asciilifeform phf: was thinking specifically of 'finished alcoholic' psychotype, rather than orcs as class
18:20 asciilifeform it being most direct equiv. afaik to western 'redditus'
18:21 verisimilitude I agree asciilifeform has a nasty habit of lumping together the lumpenproles.
18:21 * asciilifeform finds most interesting what subj have ~in common~ rather than the minutiae of differences
18:22 verisimilitude I remember back in 2020 when Reddit users were making posts from their windows, about those people who dared to go outside; many called the police on them.
18:22 asciilifeform 'life in dead end' is afaik quite similar regardless of where geographically or what kinda dope one takes to make it to n+1st day
18:22 phf asciilifeform: orc is an updated metaphor for barbarian, necessarily doesn't know "latest fashionable ways of wasting time in rome". their respective modes of failure are usually fundamentally different, e.g. cargo cult shaman "works", pilar of community, etc.
18:22 verisimilitude Life in Africa has always been a dead end, then.
18:23 verisimilitude EGO BARBARVS NON SVM
18:23 asciilifeform phf: arguably a community with a functioning shaman is notyet lumpenized
18:25 asciilifeform illustrated in e.g. bmore -- there are (grey-haired) white catholics living in lafond's 'red zone', but very differently from their 'zombie' neighbours
18:25 * asciilifeform was astonished to discover a working catholic church deep in 'redzone', complete with functioning bells, etc
18:31 phf the creatures that moved into office space in johanesburg, take shit into elevator shafts until full, moved to next place are evidently not redditors on numerours measures and observations (i assume self evident but can be further explored), yet have similar destructive effect on society. if they were closer to rome, would've all had iphones, pacified, working for ngos to create ubuntu for everyone
18:32 phf not sure where this conversation is going though :> it's hot, and my basement office is not ready yet :D
18:32 phf but i had some other comment
18:32 asciilifeform per asciilifeform's model, they're 'redditors' in the sense where knocked outta whatever traditional social fabric, and for oddball 'modern' reasons no one could spare for'em a bullet, so instead 'feral'
18:33 asciilifeform phf: re hot office, 'great lakes' co apparently sells very similar rack to asciilifeform's, about 1k$
18:35 * asciilifeform still in old office, where fat window ac transforms 'deadly hot' to merely 'painfully loud'
18:35 phf asciilifeform: you're probably not familiar with specific events i'm refering to. in this case tribals are firmly in the traditional social fabric, i'm not talking obama job creation, they drifted from hills towards green pastures, which is their way, but "no one could spare for'em a bullet" ("we can it zimbabwe now don't we?" -- blood diamonds), so simply .. moved in into offices and administrative buildings. "at first we called the
18:35 phf cops, but cops told us they can't do anything"
18:36 phf *we call it
18:36 asciilifeform a hm
18:37 phf let me dig up an old lj post on subject, obviously only person who can write about things like that is a russian tourist :D
18:37 asciilifeform afaik the only directly analogous thing in usa for these is the forest animals increasingly seen in city (coyote etc)
18:37 punkman asciilifeform: redditus not necessarily poor. redditus is why we have sex change industry. the mcfood sucks in huge amounts of resources for R&D and also converts perfectly good food into mcbooger.
18:38 punkman ecological disaster
18:38 asciilifeform punkman: mcfood is largely exercise in r&d of 'how to make'em eat petroleum at max effic.'
18:39 asciilifeform the 'sex changes' (along w/ related psychopharma) r&d in psychopharma-powered pacification. ultimately aimed to reduce cost of warehousing herd.
18:40 punkman there's still perfectly good beef. the fake beef has sort of failed to convince even the redditus, plus hugely expensive to make.
18:40 phf asciilifeform: original post on subj, but if you search йоха.. plenty of similar first person accounts, and elaboratons. unfiltered.
18:40 asciilifeform punkman: iirc latest 'cutting edge' is 100% synthetic 'beef'
18:40 asciilifeform phf: ty, will read
18:42 asciilifeform phf: interesting, reminiscent of (believe or not) english folx in 2010s writing from subj, 'unamusement park' etc. (iirc kaput when author beaten to death 'accidentally' in police station, after which ~0 engl. output re subj afaik)
18:46 * asciilifeform recalls south afr. megabestseller -- side-firing flamethrower for auto
18:47 punkman asciilifeform: "sex change victim" is goldmine. I don't see how it reduces any cost whatsoever
18:47 asciilifeform punkman: 'reduces cost' in re not need world war to 'recycle' the 'surplus' males
18:48 phf but this actually ties nicely into the other comment i was goign to make pretty sure last round of lizards self-destructed in the process. i'm reading this book "anglo-american establishment" by caroll quigley, an american professor from georgetownu exploring a real world conspiracy by cecil rhodes and variety of similar characters in shaping of english foreign policy
18:48 phf 1880-1945 or so. if you can get through minutia on which hopeful married which lords daughter after being picked from which oxford club and who his uncle was, then can clearly see that yes indeed, but what i find curious about the book is how most dates on initiatives, projects, groups, etc are upper bound at 1945.
18:48 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-13 14:16:28 asciilifeform: in last century, when plebes demanded to actually win from the gains of industrialization, lizards organized 2 world wars for'em. would've a third, but shat pants; instead retooled to psychoengineering ('bonsaikittening') and the current products of this are the subj on display.
18:48 asciilifeform prev. quigley thrd fwiw
18:48 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 15:20:01 asciilifeform: gregory5: asciilifeform was not able to stomach quigley, on acct. of critical mass of howlers in text, so cannot comment in detail
18:49 asciilifeform post-'45 evidently reorg in anglo aristocracy but not well-documented afaik anywhere.
18:50 asciilifeform there's a popular notion that current angloreich is 'rudderless' but asciilifeform not subscribes.
18:51 asciilifeform 'nature abhors vacuum' etc
18:54 phf there was thread, i don't recall details, something like "lizards were trying to put stop to progress, but got blindsided by transistor". i suspect not so much rudderless, but something like ru 90s: kgb still there, but lost reins, thing with reins after the initial confusion can pick them up, but before you do, all kinds of events might transpire, might be accidentally yelling whoa to stop, while kicking in the ribs, because panic or
18:54 phf whatever.
18:57 phf there's something to be said about communication lines, during rhodes times the guy with fastest comms was at the top of the hierarchy, because could afford "i need this message delivered to lord grosvenor who is on a diplomatic mission in paraguay". we're at peak "grosvenor's buttler knows before grosvenor does" right now, which is historically unprecedented, i suspect it requires more than just simple tweaks
18:58 asciilifeform phf: re transistor, was a series of attempts by asciilifeform to summarize (imho persuasive) thesis of alex rosov
18:58 asciilifeform ( fella however sadly long ago went off rails )
19:00 phf << yeah i looked at thread, i don't know anything about quigley otherwise, had to look up who he was for message above. i've long been on rhodesia kick, so i've been reading whatever historic material to put it in context. south africa funded the last plays by the english lordship, and then it all suddenly stopped. yohanesburg now.
19:00 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-13 14:46:31 asciilifeform: prev. quigley thrd fwiw
19:01 * asciilifeform still not 100% understand precisely who and how disassembled 'immune system' of south afr; but difficult to see how it was anyffin other than an organized, deliberate demolition, with clear purpose of removing potential competitor of reich
19:03 asciilifeform afaik there was a certain measure of gorby-style internal betrayal involved
19:04 phf south africa is round 2, first round was rhodesia where immune system worked. it was collective will of the international kommuniti that directly translated into funding of the guerillas (by both the soviets, the americans and the brits. huh.)
19:04 phf i mean rhodesian bush war lasted 15 years
19:04 asciilifeform lived for surprisingly long time aha
19:06 phf well among other things it presented all kinds of uncomfortable questions "what if we put a bunch of anglos on mars, probably will eat dirt like martians, ooops, seem to be building prosperous civilization, shut it down shut it down"
19:06 * asciilifeform suspects prime mover there was 'simple as hammer' -- 'easier & cheaper to vacuum up strategic minerals from place fulla warring pygmies than from 'living fossil' strong country run by whites runaway from 1800s'
19:07 asciilifeform aha, 'shut it down!1' etc
19:08 phf ian smith's autobiography has the perfect title to sum it up "the great betrayal"
19:08 asciilifeform arguably rhodesia opening shot of current-day 'controlled chaos doctrine'
19:09 asciilifeform key principal of reich is 'outside the reich walls, must be a cannibal zone always, never functioning industrial civ'
19:09 asciilifeform *principle
19:10 asciilifeform hence demolition of e.g. libya & co
19:10 phf yeah, that's why i find it to be particularly interesting. it's a prototype for all kinds later developments, that we sometimes think spontaneously appeared in the last couple of years or something.
19:11 asciilifeform picture if today there were a rhodesia, hypothetically for folx to defect to
19:12 asciilifeform that, imho is the main 'threat model' from which pov reich methodically sets fire to its periphery
19:12 phf sometimes you hear an argument that hitler destroyed anglo world, because made talk of anglo separatism into a dog whistle. but ian smith was already raceeees before wwii, so things don't quite add up time wise. the strategy was already there.
19:15 asciilifeform 'На момент отмены апартеида, в ЮАР существовала своя космическая программа. Страна обладала ядерными технологиями и оружием. В ЮАР, впервые в мире произвели пересадку сердца. В настоящее время космическая и ядерная программа свер
19:15 asciilifeform нуты, ученые, как и половина белого населения сбежали из страны.' << >> 'at the moment of cancellation of apartheid, south a. had its own space program. the country possessed nuclear tech and weapons. in south a. the 1st heart transplant in the world was carried out. today the space and atomic programmes are closed, the scientists , along with half of the white popul
19:15 asciilifeform ation, have fled the country...' etc
19:16 asciilifeform ftr.
19:21 asciilifeform last thing reich wanted was a living competitor with complete set of functioning collective balls, space + atomic programme, etc. late sovok happily joined in to cut off oxygen
19:22 * asciilifeform suspects 'animal instinct' of 'ephialtes effect' strongly in play
19:22 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-10-06 asciilifeform: this is the basic 'ephialtes' logic of the retardation in question.
19:23 asciilifeform ( e.g. illustrated )
19:23 dulapbot (trilema) 2015-01-03 ascii_modem: ephialtes doesnt care abou straightening own back - knows it's a fantasy - but happy to turn everyone else into hunchback.
19:23 verisimilitude Have a fun fact: The movement against apartheid was overwhelmingly Jewish. The Jews in Hollywood don't use Mel Gibson to make movies about how fucking evil the South Africans are either, now do they? I don't hear about South Africa much at all now, even.
19:23 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-13 14:59:25 asciilifeform: still not 100% understand precisely who and how disassembled 'immune system' of south afr; but difficult to see how it was anyffin other than an organized, deliberate demolition, with clear purpose of removing potential competitor of reich
19:24 asciilifeform verisimilitude: funnily enuff didn't prevent a il/za atomic collaboration
19:24 verisimilitude Yes, but now only one stands, conveniently.
19:25 asciilifeform sorta stands, on 1leg, while usg continues to pump moolah
19:28 asciilifeform verisimilitude: il aint a 'world power', or even a 'has-been' like e.g. france; is simply a resort for reich soldiers to get laid during breaks from controlled-chaos wars in near east
19:28 verisimilitude Now IL is Israel, right?
19:29 asciilifeform il -- israel, za -- south afr.
19:29 verisimilitude As figured.
19:29 verisimilitude They certainly claim to be a ``has-been''.
19:29 * asciilifeform thought was commonly understood
19:29 asciilifeform verisimilitude: and in mexico you'll find folx who claim continuation of aztlan, lol
19:29 verisimilitude My last sentence explains why I wanted to be certain.
19:30 verisimilitude Israel receives more aid from the US than anything else, so through AIPAC and the like could be considered to be a world power.
19:30 asciilifeform it's a reich outpost.
19:31 asciilifeform similar to e.g taiwan
19:31 verisimilitude Who's whose puppet?
19:31 verisimilitude Taiwan didn't get to have nukes.
19:32 asciilifeform lizards aint geographically seated, verisimilitude . haven't been for ~century
19:32 verisimilitude They're ideologically seated.
19:33 asciilifeform nuke, as it happens, 'aint errything'; za's ~20 nukes didn't help it, just as sovok's ~4000 didn't in '91
19:33 asciilifeform sumbody's gotta find a target, and pull trigger
19:33 asciilifeform where aim ?
19:33 verisimilitude Anyway, I should probably use my daily typing tolerance for my work today.
19:33 asciilifeform a++
19:40 punkman translation of russian blog worked surprisingly well. fun post.
19:42 punkman << ghouls in SA spreading all over the country. the whites surprised that they reached their newer, further from Jo'burg suburbs and towns.
19:43 punkman bunch of folks in a car going around and shooting looters with rubber bullets. top kek.
19:44 punkman or group standing on side of street to defend their shops, leader saying "if they come here don't pick fight, just tell them go loot across street, leave us alone"
~ 26 minutes ~
20:10 crtdaydreams re-reading pest spec for *nth time. is it best not to run on home net and opt instead for sandboxen vps?
20:12 crtdaydreams don't have spare vps just lyin' around, current one atm running webshit, so not ideal
20:16 crtdaydreams << the kind would not shout into public void, small things that sum to the personification of a "fuckup"
20:16 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-13 10:23:49 asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: what kinda fuckups?
20:22 crtdaydreams << i like this a lot, very layered piece, gets the gears turning.
20:22 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-13 13:30:14 signpost: crtdaydreams:
20:23 asciilifeform << must emphasize, the irc component in pest is pointedly ~not~ for to have remote link b/w the box you type into and the pestron. for elementary reason of the irc protocol per se giving 0 security of any kind
20:23 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-13 16:08:19 crtdaydreams: re-reading pest spec for *nth time. is it best not to run on home net and opt instead for sandboxen vps?
20:24 asciilifeform ... irc is there strictly because nobody atm has time to write ui coad.
20:24 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-06 13:48:07 asciilifeform: included the irc knobs so as to remove 'blocking' problem of writing clients, guis, etc. but is certainly possible to drive a pestron via a dedicated interface w/out ircism
20:25 asciilifeform and so, ideally the box which runs the pestron oughta be the one you type into. ( can use e.g. 'screen' over ssh to operate a remote pestron, but if you were to use it as plain irc server, anyone can snoop yer wot keys, and the login pw per se, and operate yer station whenever )
20:26 * crtdaydreams is aware of this, was more on tack with obeying principles of "no info the observer"
20:27 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: if you simply want to relay packets at a remote box, iirc phf recently posted a bsdism for doing this
20:28 crtdaydreams link plox
20:28 * phf is also curious, does not remember
20:29 crtdaydreams will probably not use as sandboxen running www as aforementioned, but main gist of the q was whether or not running pestron on home boxen is considered "safe practice"
20:29 crtdaydreams you've answered sufficiently though
20:29 asciilifeform was in a recent bsd thrd, can't find for sumreason atm
20:30 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: 'home box' is precisely the intended place, esp. after nat headaches permanently put to rest
20:30 crtdaydreams on that note, was wondering if pest spec would work with "traditional" irc bouncers with a mod
20:30 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: theoretically oughta work w/ e.g. znc. but see above.
20:31 crtdaydreams aaha
20:31 asciilifeform ( whai have sslism idjicy in the mix, when dun have to ?? )
20:32 crtdaydreams righto
20:32 crtdaydreams ip/port same for dulapnet as for #pest?
20:32 asciilifeform you can have remote link b/w pestron and the box into which typing, currently, but will consist inescapably of brittle heathen pseudocrypto
20:33 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: #pest dun exist as a public irctron, the ircism is emulated by yer station
20:33 asciilifeform if read spec, oughta know this
20:33 * asciilifeform brb
20:34 phf ^ "Traditional IRC offers no provisions for secure authentication or encryption; hence, it is recommended that a Pest station and its IRC client reside in one physical machine. Alternatively, they may run on separate machines and connect via an SSH tunnel or similar mechanism."
20:35 * crtdaydreams has sworn read pest spec like 5 times, but done nothing w/ info and not "fit in head" (i.e. print out and read)
20:36 crtdaydreams possib only way will fit-in-head (and stay there) would be to write own pestron
20:36 phf crtdaydreams: you def need better hobbies XD
20:36 crtdaydreams phf: whaddya mean?
20:37 crtdaydreams I was told same thing by person afk yesterday
20:37 phf republic is dead communiques are no longer sacred scrolls to be passed down the generations. if i didn't attempt to implement parts of would not get past first paragraph, with appologies to asciilifeform
20:40 phf crtdaydreams: well, for example riding horses is a lot more fun than reading network protocol specifications. it's a complicated skill, that both engages mind and body in novel ways, that also has pleasant primary effects, like being able to make a giant animal do things. on the other hand reading specs is the opposite of riding horses.
20:50 crtdaydreams phf: I don't think there is any other way to put this, it's not a matter of "don't have time," evidently spend enuff hours talking on here, it's more like "don't have energy." Working 10hr days and then just maintaining existence (meat chores, bills etc) takes it out of ya. Then classic "grass is greener on other side" parable. So any existing spare time is sucked into
20:50 crtdaydreams unproductive behaviour. Is the best thing I can do to simply gtfo of the way?
20:51 crtdaydreams yucky word vomit
20:51 phf crtdaydreams: you have kids?
20:51 crtdaydreams nope
20:51 phf why are you workin 10hr days then
20:53 crtdaydreams To honor my father and perhaps give him a chance of retirement due to my fuckups.
20:54 phf for some reason read that in jackir aprile jr.'s voice
20:55 crtdaydreams lol
20:56 crtdaydreams summary would be "karen took the kids"
20:56 phf 10hr work days are a minimax, if you're not junior analyst at goldman with a prospect to retire in 5 years by working 16 hr days 10 hr is usually a bad deal
20:58 * crtdaydreams living it; is fully aware of this
20:59 phf if i were you, i'd optimize for "what is the least amount of work i can do for max amount of compensation and still live", and then having attained that stable platform move from there, having a significantly opened up opportunity space
21:03 asciilifeform ^
21:04 phf but i've also noticed that when somebody says "my fuck ups" somehere there followed by "my father" usually end up like jackie aprile jr, because in love with own cockroaches too much. no idea if that applies to you, not knowing your situation, but usually people are in bad situations because they have the kind of obligations that require them to transcend some kind of pricinples, e.g. fuck my kids i'm moving to oaxaca, mex. can also go
21:04 phf in the opposite direction "if i change something, will have to throw out this old computer chair, tell my chuck'e'cheese boss i'm leaving, will break his heart"
21:07 crtdaydreams I'm currently being paid more than over9000 other individuals in my age bracket, I'm not complaining, it comes at the cost of 8-6, I am probably doing the least amount of work to live comfortably with $$$ to spare, not living on 2min noodles, not in debt to uni etc.
21:08 phf and so it starts, i will excuse myself from this conversation :)
21:08 punkman
21:08 crtdaydreams wat
21:09 asciilifeform << afaik 100% of the folx who req'd the 'sacred' loong ago packed up. today remain the ones who a) find the pertinent mechanical problems interesting per se b) low-key aligned in pertinent direction w/out deliberate ideological massage.
21:09 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-13 16:35:40 phf: republic is dead communiques are no longer sacred scrolls to be passed down the generations. if i didn't attempt to implement parts of would not get past first paragraph, with appologies to asciilifeform
21:09 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-19 11:19:42 asciilifeform: signpost: re 'why pest' -- asciilifeform is a btc aficionado of the (nearly extinct, possib.) old school -- would like to live in world where can get paid in uninflating, untaxable coinz, and buy necessities of live in same. doubt that anyone living nao will live to see such thing, but asciilifeform specifically interested in work which could make it at least conceivable.
21:09 asciilifeform ... likely to considerable surprise from phf's pov, these already baked 2 reasonably-complete pestrons
21:10 asciilifeform ( 'why did they do it? aint it moar fun to ride jet, fly horse ?' )
21:10 * asciilifeform warned on multiple occasions that 'we dun have worldrevolution(tm) on the menu, if that's the product yer shopping for, plz try next door'
21:11 phf asciilifeform: i don't know if i care to engage this subthread either, i'm sorry. but to the point where you put words in my mouth (or head), i was wondering why one reads the spec 5 times without doing anything with it
21:12 * crtdaydreams is simply going to shut. cannot explain current situation to any meaningful extent, not suffering from "rich kid syndrome" nor "love for cockroaches" (honor my father was poor wording and a miscommunication), nor habitus redditus.
21:12 asciilifeform optional thread, but phf invited, lol, with (not even unreasonable) q of 'wai fuck with bits, eat, drink, be merry, horse' etc
21:13 asciilifeform asciilifeform does not offer in product catalogue a canned answer for this q; 'if you gotta ask'(tm)(r) etc
21:13 phf asciilifeform: i didn't ask that question, your bringing it in from previous conversation. i repeat, i asked "why would you read spec 5 times and not do anything with it"
21:13 asciilifeform also reasonable q
21:14 asciilifeform what possessed fella to read spec? presumably found interesting in context.
21:14 phf asciilifeform: that's a self serving presumption, i can postulate a number of other, less flattering ones :p
21:14 * asciilifeform often surprised at mail from entirely random folx, who somehow found themselves reading e.g. ffa
21:15 asciilifeform phf: i've genuinely nfi why. in #a log you will not find mp-style 'if you dun read pestspec, yer a lamer, slice lengthwise, manlet' etc
21:16 asciilifeform fwiw asciilifeform concedes that current spec aint a ripper of a time reading. is adhoc, verbose, and in places laughably incomplete description of what oughta be pretty simple mechanism.
21:17 phf asciilifeform: you can indirectly though. plenty of "they doing it wong", which by implication makes what is done here "right", no?
21:17 asciilifeform phf: 'newton method' attempt at converging to 'right'
21:18 asciilifeform nobody forced to agree, observe, however. folx who 'the correct way to chat is aol' know where to find aol.
21:19 phf asciilifeform: ah, i got it, it's that thing signpost tells me i do. in my defense i wrote a handful of specs, would not expect anyone to think it's a riveting reading. honestly i thought we'd be on the same page re "why in god's world would you read technical details of a thing i'm working on without also working on it. there's so many more fun things to do"
21:19 crtdaydreams I apologise for my insolence asciilifeform, phf. I've only meaningfully read through the pest spec once, other 4 times were simply a perusal from nothingburger conversations. It's evident that I have nothing to contribute and will take my leave.
21:19 punkman phf: do you perhaps know of simple e2e encrypted messenger for android?
21:19 asciilifeform phf: indeed offen enuff asciilifeform surprised when finds who reads his various materials and how ended up doing so
21:20 asciilifeform 'i was looking for a usb debugger for xiaomi'
21:21 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: in case not clear, asciilifeform dun particularly care whether you read it, and doesn't mind answering whatever q's. but think whether is even what you wanted -- maybe wanted 'debugger for xiaomi' and here by pure accident...
21:21 punkman I enjoyed trying to implement earlier Pest spec. learned a few bits about networking/sockets/etc
21:23 punkman kinda ran out of steam when I started pulling out sqlite for simpler "k-v" store
21:23 asciilifeform iirc verisimilitude also recently read up on ip stack etc., learned ada, as side effect of following thrd
21:24 asciilifeform punkman: on asciilifeform's chalkboard there is 'clean k-v store on 'cryostat'' but who knows if will live longenuff
21:24 phf asciilifeform: you provide useful function to a handful of neets, a comfy place to hang and learn with frens, but the answer to my question "why you read the spec 5 times" is "i didn't really"
21:25 asciilifeform phf: some folx use word 'read' to refer to the kind of activity schoolchildren often found in, a kind of pantomime of study
21:25 phf didn't start this thread as some kind of learning exercise, was genuinely baffled
21:27 phf punkman: i don't, but what's your usecase? the reason why i'm asking is because i sort of understand the problem you're trying to solve, and i couldn't solve it myself, in a broader sense than just "tool for my phone".
21:27 asciilifeform afaik the 1 confessed 'neet' was jonsykkel ( for whom asciilifeform would trade three battalions of 'decent' people, lol ) but may be orthogonal to yer point
21:28 phf verisimilitude was by his own admission
21:28 * asciilifeform pictures verisimilitude as seekrit bastard son of some rockefeller
21:29 asciilifeform then again could easily be hobo with a lappy; tight-lipped fella , not gives enuff hint re which
21:29 punkman something that you can tell friend to grab from app store and is not a "telegram"/"signal". mostly for two party communication, no group function needed
21:29 asciilifeform punkman: surely you aint under the notion that a pestron would last >5sec in an 'appstore
21:30 punkman not asking for pestron, but why wouldn't it
21:31 phf punkman: i have an app (for iphone, because that's who i needed to cover), that talks to own server, using nacl, it's a very dumb messenger that can send text and photos. i use it to talk to wife and a handful of relatives. i side installed it. i've not ever upgraded since the early development.
21:31 * asciilifeform can think of several solid reasons, but will leave as exercise
21:32 asciilifeform phf: iirc shinohai actually operates a pestron in this style
21:33 phf asciilifeform: my "protocol" if you call it that is a lot more needy than pest, because not trying to fight fbi or whatever. for example there's a lot of back and forth over "did you get the message? yes i got the message. are you sure you got the message? yes, i'm sure, did you get my message that i'm sure" etc.
21:34 asciilifeform fwiw (and apologies to folx for whom this fact 100% obv) -- pest is an algo, rather than 'product'; anyone who wants can not only use 'internally' but refine and diverge in whatever preferred way, and not expected to necessarily tell asciilifeform & co. or advertise, is simply mechanical refinement of ancient tech.
21:35 billymg punkman: (ios only, and not meant for back and forth chat, but very easy to use for normies) technically open source but who knows what you're getting when you download the binary from the app store
21:38 asciilifeform ( re 'why' -- asciilifeform outlined at agonizing pedantic length in log, aims to make conceivable wotronic p2p net, for applications including but not limited to text chats, with reasonable resistance to jamming . had been working on similar since early 2000s. )
21:39 phf asciilifeform: i'm not sure who this directed to, but it kind of seems like it's a conversation with me still?
21:39 asciilifeform phf: aimed at hypothetical reader, lol
21:40 asciilifeform (the kind who wonders 'do i need to read this, or am i looking for a xiaomi debugger' lol)
21:41 asciilifeform billymg: imho the wisdom of keeping longterm keys of whatever kind on a pnoje or similar vendor-controlled device -- questionable
21:41 asciilifeform is 1 reason wai asciilifeform not eager to 'but could put this on pnoje, for n00bs and nontechnicals, wai not do so'
21:42 phf i think the conclusion of this conversation is "read my, asciilifeform's, spec 5 times? of course one should, not to say that not reading it marks one for some kind of imbecile, a dimwit, a person of poor taste, and even lesser standing, that is not what i, asciilifeform, say at all, but would i be surprised if one were to do it, out of own volition? not at all, for it is written by me!"
21:42 asciilifeform ( billymg see also )
21:42 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-26 17:26:54 asciilifeform: the fundamental problem with 'duct tape and chewing gum' ciphermachines, is that it is very, very easy to fool yourself into thinking that you've achieved something, when in fact you have led yourself and -- worse, possibly people with actual secrets to protect -- to the chopping block, by putting same linux+opensores liquishitware into pocket-sized vaguely-ciphermachine-like package.
21:43 billymg asciilifeform: of course, but assumed punkman wasn't looking for "thwart the nsa" levels of security when he asked for "something that you can tell friend to grab from app store"
21:43 asciilifeform phf: n00b walks in; cites a pest thrd, asks n00b q; asciilifeform : 'read sect. x of spec' . is typical. but not equiv. to 'what, imbecile, haven't read fucking scripture?' of mp, and imho disingenuous parallel
21:44 shinohai << yeah running pestronics on phone won't be for avg. "app for that" user, requires getting hands dirty.
21:44 asciilifeform billymg: plenty of heathen chats in appstore atm neh
21:44 asciilifeform what's the point of making an n+1st ?
21:45 asciilifeform an 'appstore pest' is arguably similar to 'central bank cryptocurrency' and other bizarre wastes of kilowattage
21:45 asciilifeform ... why have the moving parts for p2p, if you're giving hitler the keyz right off the bat.
21:45 phf asciilifeform: but see i'm not talking to you either, just a hypothetical reader, who might find my dandyism humorous
21:45 asciilifeform phf: a++, plz continue if have the cycles
21:46 * asciilifeform enjoys phf's crit, usually is 100% irrefutable
21:47 phf asciilifeform: on a serious note though i think that there should perhaps in this kind of cases be an explicit distinction between a sysop and a luser. no reason why small community of people who are less technically inclined can't get some kind of localized central authority to manage this kind of stuff. in fact i'd love for there to be more products like that. "just give me a way to configure it once, but then present a very smooth
21:47 phf surface to the end user"
21:48 asciilifeform ^ imho entirely reasonable
21:48 asciilifeform 194x: 'he's the radio man of our rote kapelle' 202x: 'he's our pester'
21:48 phf aha
21:49 asciilifeform if the thing had some kinda uptake somewhere, prolly would take this form often enuff
21:49 * asciilifeform interested to see what comes of phf's idea of www door into a pestnet
21:50 asciilifeform potentially closes some of that gap
21:50 asciilifeform fwiw apropos asciilifeform's notion of similar
21:50 bitbot (pest) 2022-06-08 asciilifeform: awt: was thinking about a hypothetical blatta mod for emplacing e.g. a n00b gate in place of dulapnet;
21:50 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-06 13:43:52 asciilifeform: signpost: would be handy to have it in #a (which asciilifeform plans to keep around as a n00b door, until figures out a way to cleanly bridge an irc door to pestnet) but not essential imho
21:57 asciilifeform upstack, fwiw the hash chains thing solves this reasonably compactly. ( and aint in any sense orig. idea of asciilifeform's, stolen 'lock stock and barrel' from bitcoin )
21:57 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-13 17:31:10 phf: asciilifeform: my "protocol" if you call it that is a lot more needy than pest, because not trying to fight fbi or whatever. for example there's a lot of back and forth over "did you get the message? yes i got the message. are you sure you got the message? yes, i'm sure, did you get my message that i'm sure" etc.
21:58 asciilifeform 'this backchains to sumthing i dun have, lemme ask for it', recurse
21:59 asciilifeform worx w/ 2 participants as well as with 20
22:00 asciilifeform in 1st draft, asciilifeform had 'ack', realized quickly that it was utterly redundant
22:01 asciilifeform ( and in current scheme, if one insists on guaranteed 'they heard me', can issue 'prod' to one's net , to similar effect )
22:02 * asciilifeform suspects that a seriously pedantic archaeologist might say 'stolen not from bitcoin, but from usenet' and wouldn't be wrong
22:05 asciilifeform << lulzy, reminiscent of gox finale
22:05 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-13 17:06:01 punkman:
22:05 asciilifeform 'trampled in run to fire exits'
22:07 phf asciilifeform: particular mechanism exists in the whole evidence of absence vs absence of evidence territory and depending on how you twist your nobs or flags you expose become one or another. then there's also user facing indicators.
22:08 asciilifeform phf: possibly failure of imagination on my part, but can't think presently of even theoretical moar compact or cheaper mechanism for synchronized set
22:08 asciilifeform (than chains, that is)
22:09 asciilifeform there's of course stochastic sync ( e.g. luby ) but not ideal for low-traffic link like chat
22:09 asciilifeform ( and considerably 'hungrier' even at most miserly rate )
22:10 asciilifeform ideally, of course, chains for 'chat' and luby&friends for GB warez...
22:10 phf asciilifeform: you're missing my meaning
22:10 asciilifeform plox to expand then
22:13 asciilifeform ( 'indicator of missing msg for user' atm is necessarily very poor, given how irc behaves 'like teletype' )
22:13 phf i'm talking about how this thing applies to practical usage and what it indicates. every time one recieves a getchain request, knows that the other side is alive and knows at least up to getchain's argument (because no way to tell if anything that you resent in response to get chain got delivered)
22:13 phf conversly other side is free to choose when it asks to getchain in entirely unbounded way
22:14 asciilifeform not quite, only knows that you have that 1 particular msg (you could be missing other predecessors somewhere)
22:14 phf can never ask (and yet theoretically still got all messages)
22:14 phf or can be asking at us frequency
22:15 phf so the question becomes "when to ask for efficient"
22:15 asciilifeform also whom to ask ( in current spec, is 'ask whole net' which arguably quite wasteful )
22:15 phf at a certain frequency getchain becomes essentially ack
22:15 phf at a lower frequency it becomes a poll
22:15 phf sorry /at a higher frequency/ becomes poll
22:16 asciilifeform well erry incoming broadcast from given net 'is an ack' in this sense, if you recv'd a msg, you can see whether its netchain includes what you had just sent
22:16 asciilifeform so avoids poll when not req'd
22:16 asciilifeform (and when req'd, the station with 'gap' knows what to ask for to fill)
22:16 phf asciilifeform: yes, but one doesn't ever have to broadcast, so this "outgoing is also an ack", complicates the reasoniing not simplifies it
22:17 phf the point of this whole frequency talk is not to just know that there's messages eventually, but /when/ you know
22:18 asciilifeform phf: arguably there's an unnecessary barb in current protocol, where netchain is unused for direct msg sessions -- really oughta be treated as simply special case of broadcast in that sense, where netchain includes the 2 parties strictly
22:18 phf obv will know fastest if sending getchain at us speeds, yolo
22:19 phf pragmatic solution is probably "send it at human speeds and as an effect of human attention", but you just moved beyond "clever protocol" into "hacks" territory. and i'm not saying that it can even be solved without hacks
22:19 asciilifeform ( the other objective, ftr, of chains, aside from delivery ack / getdata, is to make msgs meaningless outta context, further complicating replay attack )
22:19 phf e.g. when one opens chat with x, in gui, send getchain always
22:20 asciilifeform phf: this function currently served by 'prod' (there aint a 'getchain', there's a 'getdata' which takes specific msg hash, and a 'prod' which sends yer current state vars )
22:21 * asciilifeform reminds tuned in folx that afaik none of the current prototypes implement 'prod'
22:21 phf asciilifeform: that's completely unrelated to what i'm saying
22:23 * asciilifeform comes up short re how not related. read phf's observation as 'there oughta be a way to ask $peer at time t 'are we in sync'', which atm is offered in 'prod' mechanism
22:25 asciilifeform there are well-known 'lamportian' limits to what can be achieved in general this say (to take simple example, say the 'prod' lags behind a n+1st msg due to packet reordering)
22:25 asciilifeform *this way
22:26 asciilifeform ( possibly what phf meant under 'proofs of absence' ? )
22:28 phf
22:28 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-13 18:15:21 phf: the point of this whole frequency talk is not to just know that there's messages eventually, but /when/ you know
22:29 asciilifeform phf: atm the net operates at a reasonable multiple of 'human attention freq', as side effect of 'send 'ignores' to keep nat ephemeral port open' originally
22:30 asciilifeform this defo not 'optimally miserly' however
22:30 asciilifeform if sending msgs cost a buck ea., would need to be rockefeller.
22:30 asciilifeform (fortunately it doesn't)
22:31 phf so in other words one can send getdata every second to everyone and not be concerned
22:31 asciilifeform ( this incidentally illustrates (entire class of) unsolved problems in re hypothetical 'uwb radio pest' )
22:31 asciilifeform aha
22:32 asciilifeform ( in the hypothetical 'uwb pest' -- erry msg you send potentially demasks yer position and brings gestapo closer )
22:35 asciilifeform ( i.e. makes less plausible the assertion 'hey i wasn't pirateradioing, i merely flicked my 'bic' with piezo igniter to light a cig, wanna light?' )
22:37 asciilifeform uninitiated folx would be surprised to learn what 'pirate sw radios' they already own...
22:39 * asciilifeform must bbl but ftr kudos to phf for loading algo into head and digging in
~ 1 hours ~
23:40 signpost << either that or evidence of a schizoid mind that both "wants to" and "gee so busy"
23:40 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-13 17:22:13 phf: asciilifeform: you provide useful function to a handful of neets, a comfy place to hang and learn with frens, but the answer to my question "why you read the spec 5 times" is "i didn't really"
23:44 signpost << huehue
23:44 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-13 17:43:07 phf: asciilifeform: but see i'm not talking to you either, just a hypothetical reader, who might find my dandyism humorous
23:50 signpost << I would like to put the thing in every ranch owner's hands that I know.
23:50 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-13 17:46:27 asciilifeform: 194x: 'he's the radio man of our rote kapelle' 202x: 'he's our pester'
23:51 signpost because there are good odds we're headed for another great depression.
23:56 signpost I also did work for a niche food distributor once upon a time, runs trucks all across the states, sorta novel distribution network.
23:56 signpost ideal thing to put in the hands of their truckers to distribute along the routes.
23:57 signpost guy had a more religions reason for hating the state than I had, but hey, however you get up the mountain.
23:59 signpost *religious
← 2022-06-12 | 2022-06-14 →