Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2022-01-24 | 2022-01-26 →
00:03 vex if i'm not mistaken, an interesting finding from this is that meth miners quietly snake 1inch trades. makes me wonder if it'd be possible to serve up a shit sandwich that gets tastier with every bite
00:03 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 05:47:14 mats: ethereum shenanigans
~ 34 minutes ~
00:38 vex I hope you're bolting that big `ol rack down asciilifeform. earthquakes happen. she'll be heavy fully loaded
00:43 asciilifeform vex: oblig.
00:44 vex lol
00:58 vex I read Mr taleb did decry bc on twitter re recent cheapser
01:02 vex $ticker btc usd
01:02 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $36133.72
01:10 vex whaack, can we haz getdifficulty? might be nice for future archae if they only have da logs
01:18 whaack !e view-block 31337
01:18 trbexplorer 1 of 1
01:18 whaack vex: see "target"
01:19 vex aha
01:19 whaack but i agree for archives it may be nice to have the results pasted to something more permanent
01:20 whaack however it is data in the blockchain so arguably the most permanent storage around
01:20 whaack arguably already saved to*
01:20 vex ofc
01:28 vex noone mines anymore anyway
01:32 whaack well that's certainly not true
01:32 vex ofc not
01:33 vex just being dramatic
01:33 * vex wonders the blockheight when pankakke laid on the tracks
01:40 vex Imagine hitting that block, wait; lemme call alanis morriset!
~ 52 minutes ~
02:32 vex parisian drew shitty cards, the wetware went into a pain loop
~ 30 minutes ~
03:03 mats shut up already
03:06 vex I really want to on your recommendation, but I've got questions
~ 16 minutes ~
03:22 vex 0H6re3PCP3E
03:23 asciilifeform << somewhere in the 66e4's, loox like
03:23 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-24 20:33:51 vex: wonders the blockheight when pankakke laid on the tracks
03:23 dulapbot Logged on 2021-01-14 18:18:32 asciilifeform: meanwhile, lol pankkake !
03:23 dulapbot Logged on 2021-01-14 10:23:29 watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.095s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=665876 (Operator: asciilifeform)
03:24 asciilifeform you can push that search button as well as asciilifeform can , vex
03:27 asciilifeform or i suppose if want moar precision, he supposedly performed pankkuku on dec. 9 of '20, so there'd be closer.
03:27 dulapbot Logged on 2020-12-10 15:54:33 watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.047s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=660804 (Operator: asciilifeform)
03:30 asciilifeform while e.g. mp bit it, supposedly, in the 688s.
03:30 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-24 10:32:01 watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.099s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=688688 (Operator: asciilifeform)
03:32 asciilifeform << cat on kbd or wat
03:32 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-24 22:23:08 vex: 0H6re3PCP3E
03:32 vex its a utube link
03:32 asciilifeform ( cat knows how to shift? )
03:32 asciilifeform a
03:33 vex cat only brings dead things
03:33 asciilifeform speakin' of which, a good 80% of vex's youtubes dun even load in usa
03:33 vex glhf
03:36 vex current pet actualyy will rip up an mp style asian house gecko. dunno how it gets `em
03:37 asciilifeform mouse w/ scales.
03:38 vex ceilingcat.jpeg
03:39 asciilifeform ceiling cat watches you waste kW/hrs, vex, lol
03:39 * asciilifeform will bbl.
03:46 whaack << word. vex, you've been following along enough to know that *someone* is going to have to peer for you to be able for you to talk in pestnet, right? atm i'm not going to risk losing my peers who may care about their snr
03:46 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-24 22:03:15 mats: shut up already
03:47 whaack although idk how i would even exchange keys with you i don't have your key and don't see one ieven in
03:48 whaack !e view-height
03:48 trbexplorer block_height: 720273
03:48 trbexplorer mins_since_last_block: 19
03:51 vex over 10
03:55 whaack you were right, no one is mining!
03:55 whaack !e view-height
03:55 trbexplorer block_height: 720275
03:55 trbexplorer mins_since_last_block: 4
03:55 whaack ah, nvm
~ 27 minutes ~
04:23 vex 0LqBw6FNNng always
04:27 vex durable goods.
04:28 vex 2AHvZWojSc heya ny
04:29 asciilifeform !!key vex
04:29 deedbot Not registered.
04:29 asciilifeform tsk.
~ 24 minutes ~
04:53 whaack over 8 years and still no key, holy fuck
04:53 dulapbot (trilema) 2013-09-13 Vexual: anyone on channel?
04:54 whaack vex confirmed spook
05:03 whaack in good news, i've added some light testing to the block explorer, and it has caught some minor bugs
~ 16 minutes ~
05:19 whaack ohhh and in bad/good idk news, i have caught a big bug...
05:22 whaack !e view-tx 6f7cf9580f1c2dfb3c4d5d043cdbb128c640e3f20161245aa7372e9666168516
05:22 trbexplorer 1 of 1
05:24 whaack ^ notice how for this tx we're somehow showing a tx with a different tx_hash then the one we searched for o.o
05:26 * whaack prays he does not have a corrupt db
~ 56 minutes ~
06:22 whaack !e view-tx 728 1
06:22 trbexplorer 1 of 1
06:22 whaack !e view-tx 6f7cf9580f1c2dfb3c4d5d043cdbb128c640e3f20161245aa7372e9666168516
06:22 trbexplorer 1 of 1
06:23 whaack bug fixed, there was no db corruption issue, it was caused by some mixup with the scope of a variable
~ 42 minutes ~
07:06 mats
~ 6 hours 19 minutes ~
13:25 asciilifeform mats: november??
~ 16 minutes ~
13:42 PeterL saw this, I thought vex was using "pet" the way asciilifeform does, was wondering what kind of crazy bitch have you hooked up with that likes tearing up lizzards?
13:42 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-24 22:37:10 vex: current pet actualyy will rip up an mp style asian house gecko. dunno how it gets `em
~ 1 hours 9 minutes ~
14:52 asciilifeform lol
14:53 * asciilifeform has both kinds
14:55 asciilifeform << '‘We need to be regulated,’ the CEO says.' >> lol
14:55 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-25 02:06:38 mats:
14:55 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-19 13:07:50 mats: binance doesn't subordinate to any sovereign
~ 1 hours 13 minutes ~
16:09 asciilifeform $ticker btc usd
16:09 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $36600.92
16:09 asciilifeform !w poll
16:09 watchglass Polling 14 nodes...
16:09 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.032s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=720349 (Operator: asciilifeform)
16:09 watchglass : Alive: (0.022s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=720349 (Operator: asciilifeform)
16:09 watchglass : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=720349
16:09 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.082s) V=70001 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=720349
16:09 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.141s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=720349
16:09 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.172s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=720349
16:09 watchglass : Alive: (0.103s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=720349 (Operator: whaack)
16:09 watchglass : Alive: (0.143s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=720349
16:09 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.262s) V=88888 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=720349
16:09 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.262s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=720349
16:09 watchglass : Could not connect!
16:10 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.038s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=720349
16:10 watchglass : Violated BTC Protocol: Bad header length!
16:11 watchglass : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
~ 1 hours 3 minutes ~
17:14 asciilifeform billymg: asciilifeform noticed that yer logger www nao over9000x faster. didja find the magick postgres knob or wat ?
17:15 billymg asciilifeform: i've also noticed that it seems faster but i couldn't tell you what i did
17:15 asciilifeform lolk
17:15 billymg "all chans" searches still take some time
17:15 billymg but yeah, definitely faster
17:18 billymg asciilifeform: oh, heh, crawler lost its pg connection (doesn't have the auto-reconnect feature yet), probably what freed up the resources for the logger
17:18 asciilifeform lol!
17:18 * asciilifeform suspected
17:23 billymg asciilifeform: any updates on the bigger boxes yet?
17:24 asciilifeform billymg: oh yes : 'customer a' renewed (was out to sea, lol.) found potential src for missing ram for baking moar dulaps, tho
17:24 asciilifeform can accomodate +1 dulap, after that will need the 'super' rack from upstream host
17:26 billymg how much ram are you short? i remember in my request i spec'd it rather high, i'd be open to starting a subscription with a lower amount and adjusting upwards as you receive the extra sticks
17:30 asciilifeform billymg: 128G. (ecc). tricky to get hold of working set tho, asciilifeform ended up with several duds
17:33 billymg asciilifeform: i'm definitely fine with getting this thing going without the extra 128G, it would still be a major upgrade from the RK
17:34 billymg if that's an option
17:34 mats asciilifeform: they 'want' it, but if you recall the more recent malta piece, would rather have their freedom
17:35 mats piece is more useful for info on how massive it is
17:35 whaack !e view-height
17:35 trbexplorer block_height: 720357
17:35 trbexplorer mins_since_last_block: 3
17:35 mats like doing 2.7tn usd in spot and derivatives trading volume in a single month
17:36 mats or being bigger than hkex, nyse, and lse combined
17:38 mats mpex could have been this, it had the lead and nearly the right ideas
~ 22 minutes ~
18:00 asciilifeform mats: could equally say 'mtgox could've been this'
18:02 mats thats not nice
18:03 mats my initial arg was that cz/binance is a sovereign, and i think that's borne out of the facts
18:05 mats you might not like them because they're an exchange, but at least someone in bitcoin does what they want, free of other sovereign encumbrances
18:08 asciilifeform mats: how's this square w/ 'does what they want' ? they dunwork in usa cuz dun like letter 'u', or wat
18:08 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-19 13:08:19 asciilifeform: 'Binance is unable to provide services to U.S. users. Binance.US (BAM Trading Services) is a US-regulated cryptocurrency trading platform. In approved states, U.S. customers can use Binance.US to buy and sell over 50 cryptocurrencies with low fees.'
18:09 mats if you read through the entire piece, you'll see that they've firewalled off the us biz from everything else
18:09 mats they like the us market, because there's money in it, but not at the price of submission to usg
18:10 asciilifeform as asciilifeform understands the word, an actual sovereign trades with whoever it likes
18:10 mats and as discussed before, plenty of americans do trade on binance
18:10 asciilifeform via neutral 3rd parties, if req'd (e.g. iran's petro market)
18:10 mats using the binance coin, tether, or any number of alts
18:11 asciilifeform i.e. 1st gotta buy shitcoin locally? why use a 2nd gox then at all ?
18:12 mats because its bigger than the next four exchanges, with corresponding benefits
18:12 mats highly liquid markets, with deep order books and tight spreads
18:13 mats and a derivatives book that americans can't use
18:13 asciilifeform a, for these
18:13 dulapbot Logged on 2020-05-05 19:59:44 asciilifeform: as a rule, they're entirely happy to buy promisecoin, so can 'leverage' and 'play'.
18:13 mats the fees also start at 0.1%
18:13 * asciilifeform not in target market
18:13 * asciilifeform must bbl
18:15 mats its an exchange, ofc they trade for promisecoins
18:15 mats you are so difficult
18:20 * billymg is still waiting for another btc-e, i.e. no passport selfies required
~ 49 minutes ~
19:09 asciilifeform billymg: may be long wait.
19:10 PeterL it's an open niche, who wants to be the brave soul who tries to fill it?
19:11 asciilifeform PeterL: imho is a niche which rightfully oughta be occupied by folx one knows in meatspace.
19:11 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-14 20:07:52 asciilifeform: i.e. you go to yer l1 hawaladar.
19:11 asciilifeform (any other way to organize it will devolve into plain goxism.)
19:13 billymg PeterL: apparently a niche that even "sovereign binance" cannot fill, so dunno who greater than sovereign that could
19:18 asciilifeform any approach to fiatola<->btc other than the wotronic -- invites the reich.
19:18 dulapbot Logged on 2020-12-17 19:39:26 asciilifeform: for instance, afaik 100% of 'illicit exchange man' arrests to date, were 'controlled buys' a la dope. i.e. intrinsically impossible in a solid wot context.
19:19 asciilifeform is half of why reich even tolerates goxes -- to put brakes on the development of proper wotronic trade.
19:19 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-19 13:03:00 asciilifeform: the reason why various 2010s 'they'll ban goxes!' prognoses (incl. asciilifeform's) came to nuffin, is that turns out goxes are a very effective instrument of exchrate control, and therefore quite valuable to the reich.
19:20 asciilifeform so imho 'dream of a better gox' is very much wrong direction.
19:20 asciilifeform the best gox is no gox at all.
19:22 asciilifeform seekers of 'star topology' ~create~ the reich, rather than the reverse.
19:23 whaack the only important job in the 'gox' direction imo is a pure btc denominated web wallet for low value transactions, i.e. a place where blue collar new bitcoin users can save up until they are able to afford doing their own biz onchain
19:23 asciilifeform ( once created, naturally, maintained, esp. as folx 'atrophy' and 'ohnoez, p2p trade is impossible, see, 'localbitcoin' died..)
19:23 asciilifeform whaack: a la signpost's, aha
19:23 whaack exactly
19:33 mats i guess there's no curing allergies to markets
19:33 thimbronion you are all already kyc'd
19:37 PeterL whaack: there is some benefit to having an interface between usd banks and bitcoin, and price discovery is also necessary
19:43 whaack PeterL: If there was no bank<->btc interface you would be inundated with people looking to work directly for your coin. And the price discovery would happen way faster as 10s / 100s of thousands individuals would be weighing in what they believed would be a fair work<->btc exchange and item<->btc exchange.
19:43 mats that's just not the world we live in
19:44 mats you work with the mud and sticks you have, not the ones you wish you had
19:44 PeterL or you would just have less people using btc
19:44 mats hawala doesn't scale, and lets not do the medieval commerce thread again, thats exhausting
19:46 mats being able to ignore these realities is a privilege and not at all conducive to economy
19:46 billymg << asciilifeform, just so this doesn't get lost. let me know if that's an option and how long it would take to get up and running
19:46 bitbot Logged on 2022-01-25 17:33:46 billymg: asciilifeform: i'm definitely fine with getting this thing going without the extra 128G, it would still be a major upgrade from the RK
19:46 whaack there's a reason the reich sets up goxes and it's not for the benefit of btc
19:47 thimbronion Either btc is fungible or it's not
19:48 mats you've removed agency from the discussion and that's not generous
19:48 thimbronion I say it's fungible
19:48 thimbronion If it's fungible it doesn't matter if you got it from a gox
19:49 whaack ^ that's absolutely the case. there may be a risk at the moment of buying from the gox but it doesn't currently hurt the value of your coin.
19:50 whaack mats: i don't understand what you're saying re removing agency from the discussion
19:51 mats not every exchange is being operated by a representative of a government
19:52 mats they don't "set up" exchanges, they are built by people, with their own agency, who make individual choices
19:52 mats and not all of those people readily submit to 200 different sovereigns
19:55 billymg makes no difference to me if binance is indeed sovereign but still requires all the same fiat paperwork in order to create an account
19:56 asciilifeform << oughta work, seems that i've 128G of working stix, will try to fit it into coming weekend
19:56 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-25 14:46:18 billymg: << asciilifeform, just so this doesn't get lost. let me know if that's an option and how long it would take to get up and running
19:56 billymg asciilifeform: nice!
19:56 mats for a very long time, all they asked for was an email, and max daily withdrawals were 2btc
19:56 thimbronion billymg: concretely what is the problem with filling out kyc info?
19:57 asciilifeform << 'kyc' is a reich 'limba de lemn', it aint about ~you~ 'knowing yer customer', but rather about gestapo also in real time knowing.
19:57 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-25 14:33:57 thimbronion: you are all already kyc'd
19:57 thimbronion asciilifeform: elementarily
19:58 mats you cannot decentralise all the things
19:58 asciilifeform << aaha
19:58 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-25 14:43:28 whaack: PeterL: If there was no bank<->btc interface you would be inundated with people looking to work directly for your coin. And the price discovery would happen way faster as 10s / 100s of thousands individuals would be weighing in what they believed would be a fair work<->btc exchange and item<->btc exchange.
19:58 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-14 20:00:53 asciilifeform: if over9000 folx do this, before long the 'half' becomes 'full' duplex.
19:58 mats one of the worst memes of bitcoin
19:58 thimbronion asciilifeform: is bitcoin fungible?
19:58 asciilifeform mats: who/what do you rely on to tell you what can and what cannot be decentralized ?
19:58 mats markets require centralisation, its tautological
19:59 asciilifeform mats: ~how much~ centralization, tho. i.e. need 'town market', or whatever conventional place for buyers & sellers to run into 1 anuther. but does it follow that also 'need' walmart or univermag to control all commerce ?
20:00 mats neither walmart nor binance controls all commerce
20:00 billymg thimbronion: good question, in some ways i see your point that we're all "already kyc'd". part of it is just that i've never had to do the "selfie holding passport" thing (goxes back in '14 didn't require it)
20:00 mats they're just very big and there's economies of scale that follow
20:00 billymg goxes back then also weren't diligently generating 1099s for all of your transactions
20:00 mats we can in principle agree that large markets have material benefits, which you may not personally avail yourself of
20:01 mats since you don't trade, you just buy, which is nice for you
20:01 mats there's a whole rest of the economy out there with different needs
20:01 thimbronion billymg: they don't do 1099s of your transactions now
20:01 billymg mats: i think big markets are great, i just don't like that "governments" have their hooks in them in the form of regulations
20:01 billymg mats: why not let market self regulate?
20:02 mats sure, i get it
20:02 mats i feel like i've been around long enough to have earned the benefit of the doubt
20:02 mats but every game has rules
20:02 mats we play by them until they change, or there's an end-run
20:03 asciilifeform << seems to be a 'religious' q. some folx strongly convinced that there are 'dirty' coins. ( fwiw asciilifeform not practitioner of this religion , from his pov the only 'dirty' coins are ones you bought at a reich gox where entered into yer dossier; and they're 'dirty' only vis-a-vis ~you
20:03 asciilifeform ~ )
20:03 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-25 14:58:22 thimbronion: asciilifeform: is bitcoin fungible?
20:03 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-13 14:15:15 asciilifeform: PeterL: observe that asciilifeform is 100% happy to accept coinz for rack service today, and doesn't particularly care where $customer got'em
20:03 billymg thimbronion: ah, i assumed pretty much every trade could potentially result in "profit", e.g. if you trade 1 btc for a million doge coin, maybe there was "capital gains" on that, and so they generate the 1099
20:03 whaack not every exchange is being operated by a representative of a government << I beg to disagree. Your poster child example of sovereign exchange has their CEO stating "we need regulation". The USG does not allow ANY "money transmitter" to work within the fiat banking system unless it has aligned operatives inside the system. This predates bitcoin and was one of the motives for bitcoin's creation.
20:03 whaack You and I may have different definitions of what is a USG operative, but I consider anyone who submits to the culture of the politic USG pays taxes, goes and votes, and in general hallucinates that some ppl in washington have more rights than others are all part of the USG. They may be, and very likely are, wholly unconscious of their alignment, I'm sure the employees of Coinbase say and believe
20:03 whaack they work at a private company.
20:04 asciilifeform ^
20:06 billymg whaack: well said
20:06 asciilifeform << wasn't the allegation. however reich ~does~ control all Official electric usd motion -- buy x kg of fertilizer at 1 shop, x litres of diesel at filling station, get visit from gestapo. sell a car at dealership, didn't report the 'income' -- expect tax visit. etc
20:06 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-25 15:00:29 mats: neither walmart nor binance controls all commerce
20:06 mats for an operative, they put up an awful fight to regulators
20:07 mats i guess there's no evidence that can possibly convince
20:07 asciilifeform convince of what?
20:08 mats quitting malta because of eu regulation means they might possibly not be gestapo
20:08 asciilifeform << imho not only not 'worst', but factually the only real purpose to bothering with the thing at all. i.e. to slowly get the reich outta folxs' hair, cutting 1 small tentacle at a time.
20:08 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-25 14:58:21 mats: one of the worst memes of bitcoin
20:08 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-15 12:03:03 asciilifeform: imho ~whole point of bothering with the extremely gnarly rube goldberg apparatus is to piss on the reich in various ways.
20:08 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-19 11:19:42 asciilifeform: signpost: re 'why pest' -- asciilifeform is a btc aficionado of the (nearly extinct, possib.) old school -- would like to live in world where can get paid in uninflating, untaxable coinz, and buy necessities of live in same. doubt that anyone living nao will live to see such thing, but asciilifeform specifically interested in work which could make it at least conceivable.
20:10 mats what if agreeing to submit, and not really, meant that partisan exchange operators could take money from clients of the reich, while resisting in other quarters through i.e. legal shenanigans? until v-day?
20:10 mats isn't there an asymmetry to that?
20:11 asciilifeform mats: seemingly orthogonal q, but gotta ask: per your pov, are e.g. cocaine smugglers 'resisting the reich' ? or, are they part of it ? (could their biz model w/out it?)
20:12 asciilifeform *exist w/out
20:12 thimbronion asciilifeform: what is the concern re: paying taxes on bitcoin profits?
20:12 mats they could not do without it, they need airplanes, airplane registration, fuel, hangars, bank accounts, corporate registration, etc
20:12 mats this involves fiat
20:12 asciilifeform thimbronion: this, for instance. i.e. taxation of the 'gain' amounts to simple slow confiscation imho
20:12 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-19 12:24:15 asciilifeform: 1. ... it'll be taxed (i.e. some uknown, potentially up to 100%, of its value confiscated by busybodies taxing imaginary 'gain', which in actuality consists strictly of ~their~ toiletpaper's debasement)
20:13 thimbronion asciilifeform: have you heard of lifo accounting?
20:13 asciilifeform thimbronion: elaborate ?
20:13 mats working with the reich doesn't imply doing so in good faith
20:14 thimbronion asciilifeform:
20:14 asciilifeform mats: reich worx entirely fine largely using human material that aint working 'in good faith'. good % even thinks 'resisting!'
20:14 mats embrace and extinguish
20:14 mats bitcoin with the bear hug.
20:14 asciilifeform thimbronion: maybe i'm thick, but not sure how pertains
20:15 thimbronion asciilifeform: you claim you will have to pay cap gains taxes. How is this the case if you use lifo?
20:16 asciilifeform ( or how it gets you around 'gains' going into yer dossier automagically, but 'losses' having to be justified, potentially, ad infinitum, w/ no guarantee of 'legitimization' )
20:16 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-10 13:15:34 asciilifeform: when you get a lump of usd from an official (e.g. gox) org, they generate a 'this fella owes' event in usg record. ~loss~ (i.e. rebuying same coin) generates no similar automatic subtraction.
20:16 mats the cap gains thresholds are kinda low for moneybags like asciilifeform
20:16 asciilifeform lol
20:17 mats long term cap gains kick in at 15% after the first 40k
20:18 asciilifeform reich tax system is specifically, quite deliberately built to maximally rape the people w/ sumthing to take, and w/ income deriving from work (rather than dividend drawing). this yes incl. asciilifeform , folx like famous joe stack, etc.
20:19 thimbronion If you convert your monthly income to btc and spend whatever percent you normally spend to pay off your cc every month and use lifo, your cap gains will be minimal or nothing at all.
20:20 asciilifeform re cap gains taxation -- in inflationary hell, is simple theft. 'sold house? made 'profit'' 'now i want an equivalent house' 'sorry, yer 20% short nao, tax'
20:20 mats oh good, another 'woe is me, the oppressed middle upper income taxpayer'
20:20 whaack <<--- this is projection
20:20 bitbot Logged on 2022-01-25 20:07:19 mats: i guess there's no evidence that can possibly convince
20:20 mats there's plenty of handouts, you just won't take them
20:21 asciilifeform lol mats, which 'handouts' ?
20:21 mats mortgage interest expense deduction, rooftop solar subsidy, extended child tax credit, investment interest expense deduction
20:21 thimbronion business expenses
20:22 mats there's probably more but i can't think of them
20:22 * asciilifeform deducts biz expenses. doesn't have a solartron yet; but that's a 1time thing, chicken change
20:22 asciilifeform and yes if e.g. asciilifeform borrowed 10mil$, the interest deduction would add up to sumthing. (but why??!)
20:23 mats more bitcorns
20:23 asciilifeform imagine if there were a 'cost of heroin' deduction. would start shooting up..?
20:23 mats oh right, i forgot, loans are haram
20:23 mats you are the actual worst
20:24 * asciilifeform doesn't consider loans per se 'haram'. just normally bad idea.
20:24 thimbronion asciilifeform: dying with the most debt is a win
20:25 asciilifeform well if it's 'trump-style' infinitely-rollable debt, then a++
20:25 mats euros complain about americans not having wealth tax
20:25 asciilifeform (rather than plebe 'collections took the car and dog' sort)
20:25 whaack asciilifeform: there are buckets of cash being sent to everyone in the country dontjaknow? (not really sarcasm)
20:25 mats famously, american billionaires are pilloried for being able to put up their equity as collateral, borrow for incredibly low rates, and basically 'hodl' until dead
20:25 asciilifeform whaack: ikr? it almost covered asciilifeform's electric bill for 6mo!
20:26 whaack haha
20:26 mats musk can sell when he wants, not necessarily because he has a 0.1% annual wealth tax to pay
20:27 mats but also alf!
20:27 asciilifeform we have 'wealth tax' in usa. i.e. inflation. it simply only applies to plebes
20:27 asciilifeform the folx w/ rembrandt, dun have to 'pay 0.1% of rembrandt' quarterly
20:28 mats yeah ok, the long suffering american taxpayer
20:28 whaack asciilifeform: sure they do, they print themselves N and then pay their fair share of N/4
20:28 mats i'm just reminding you how good we have it, relatively
20:30 asciilifeform whaack: lolyes
20:30 asciilifeform mats: y'know, you might find yerself working for a living one day. even if think to be no chance of this.
20:31 mats i actually start soon on some unspeakable wage slavery
20:31 mats after a short break
20:32 asciilifeform oh hm mats , i thought you've 'made it' in machinations w/ leveraged goxisms etc for sumreason
20:32 mats i'm too young to retire
20:32 mats it was boring
20:32 asciilifeform (and running on clean-burning btc a la thimbronion)
20:33 mats did half of my bucket list and lost interest
20:33 whaack "how good we have it" "unspeakable wage slavery" you get the log comedy medal today mat
20:33 mats i'm not doing it because i need the money
20:34 whaack if you don't need the money then why don't you do something interesting here
20:34 * asciilifeform 's 'bucket list' includes things like 'bake sane cpu arch, prog lang, & os' so unlikely to suffer this 'illness' even if somehow escaped from wageschwitz
20:34 asciilifeform whaack: iirc mats dun program ( ? )
20:34 mats i'm following along with the pest stuff, might write a small client
20:35 thimbronion oddly the more btc you accumulate ultimattely the less of your income you will pay in tax
20:35 asciilifeform thimbronion: per current tax regime, factual
20:35 mats i don't program with regularity but i have in the past
20:36 asciilifeform (i.e. currently selling microscopic chunks of 'hodl' is taxed at 'long' rate, rather than 'wage' rate)
20:36 asciilifeform mats: i recall you used to do reversisms
20:36 whaack mats: how are your hands nowadays?
20:36 whaack i should mention in logs my pain has gone from 5/10 back down to 1/10
20:37 whaack pretty much zero hinderance to my work right now, thank god
20:37 asciilifeform happy to hear this, whaack . ( asciilifeform assumed 'cured' or near, given that whaack returned )
20:38 mats whaack: no improvement, but i have talon voice to help these days
20:38 * asciilifeform often asked how he escapes wrist rot. answrs 'by typing very little, likely'
20:38 mats so long as i avoid doing 30 consecutive mins of typing it stays at a dull roar
20:39 whaack asciilifeform: from my investigation the brachial plexus gives genetic RNG on how the nerves are setup, so very possible you are lucky / mats and i are unlucky
20:41 asciilifeform also possib
20:41 whaack mats: i have no idea if what i did helped or if i'm even actually better vs. just having reduce symptoms, but i've been focusing on keeping an upright posture, taking collagen and magnesium supplements everyday with store-bought water, and doing exercise on the slackline
20:41 * asciilifeform has suffered symptoms resembling early stages of wrist rot in the past, tho, when actually had to key > coupla kB / d
20:41 mats i ignored it for a long time and probably made it worse
20:42 whaack mats: have you tried the john sarno route? I mentioned in the logs before, it seems to have helped a lot of people
20:42 mats bengay and ibuprofen are not actually helpful
20:42 mats no, ill look at it
20:43 mats i mean, if i quit keyboards completely, it goes away entirely after six or seven weeks
20:44 mats and then it'll come back when i'm neglectful and sit down for a few hours where i'm actually using it a lot
20:44 mats so in some sense it can be very manageable and i just can't get myself there
20:45 whaack mats: alright, take it in with an open mind
20:47 mats this guy is doing interesting stuff
20:47 mats project here
20:48 whaack mats: and i highly recommend getting a slackline, it helps you with posture and building up shoulder muscles and it is incredibly fun
20:48 whaack shoulder and back muscles *
20:49 asciilifeform oh hm tightrope ?
20:51 asciilifeform << asciilifeform finds this kinda thing moar interesting than simply for 'hands gave out' application
20:51 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-25 15:48:04 mats: project here
20:51 dulapbot Logged on 2020-08-06 19:09:24 asciilifeform: theoretically interesting -- there were concepts in interlisp that never appeared in mit cadr + successors (bolix etc) -- e.g. the 'structure editor'
20:51 asciilifeform muchly neglected concept in the current dark age of kompyooting.
20:51 whaack mats: also see and
20:52 asciilifeform ( see also thrd )
20:52 dulapbot Logged on 2020-08-19 18:33:39 amberglint: asciilifeform: Interlisp-D emulator's src is up:
20:52 mats guy works on it full time and i donate
20:52 mats hes also a cripple
20:53 asciilifeform structure editors would be a++ even for folx w/ working hands..
20:54 whaack i really hope you get better, it sounds like i have had 10% of the pain that you have had for less time and that has been incredibly frustrating and depressing.
20:59 mats thanks for mentioning it, i shared it with him in case he hasn't seen
21:00 whaack asciilifeform: a slackline is similar to a tightrope, but a tightrope has more tention and you hold a bar to help you balance
21:00 mats whaack: i appreciate it
21:01 whaack i've been using my slackline even more than surfing now, it's much faster to get a quick fun workout than going to surf
21:03 mats is there more information about this structure editor somewhere?
21:04 asciilifeform mats: film
21:05 asciilifeform pc port.
21:06 asciilifeform screenshits.
21:11 * asciilifeform must bbl
~ 1 hours 20 minutes ~
22:32 billymg << this makes sense but how is it different from just spending that fiat directly? i guess technically you're avoiding capital gains tax, but only because you're not generating any capital gains
22:32 bitbot Logged on 2022-01-25 20:19:59 thimbronion: If you convert your monthly income to btc and spend whatever percent you normally spend to pay off your cc every month and use lifo, your cap gains will be minimal or nothing at all.
22:32 billymg << what type of salary work do you do mats?
22:32 bitbot Logged on 2022-01-25 20:31:40 mats: i actually start soon on some unspeakable wage slavery
22:39 billymg i'm also in this camp. whenever i start thinking of going back to slaving for fiat i remind myself that working for the enemy is a trap
22:39 bitbot Logged on 2022-01-21 18:26:51 thimbronion: I personally prefer the price to stay high so I can work on meaningful things, as opposed to almost anything you can get fiat for doing.
22:39 bitbot Logged on 2021-11-04 03:31:08 billymg: signpost: lately i go back and forth between a) hunker down and grow/raise my own food, b) join megacorp and hope the keycard they give me gets me into whole foods after the masses get locked out
22:39 bitbot (trilema) 2018-05-14 asciilifeform: there's a common set of jokes from su, q: 'if only we let germany win, we'd be drinking bavarian! riding in mercedes!' a: '... yes, ride in mercedes. but -- as the leather seat.'
22:46 whaack yup, time is the spiritual currency, spend it wisely
22:47 billymg -- it still feels like el salvador is the only sovereign actually pissing in the reich's cheerios these days
22:47 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-15 12:03:03 asciilifeform: imho ~whole point of bothering with the extremely gnarly rube goldberg apparatus is to piss on the reich in various ways.
22:54 thimbronion billymg: you will generate capital gains on average. You will pay tax on it. This has the advantages of a) not losing money due to fiat inflation b) not supporting regime wars funded by fiat.
22:56 thimbronion I suppose you could argue weather paying taxes supports the regime more, or holding their scrip
22:56 thimbronion however whether one of the other is true, you end up with more wealth.
22:57 billymg thimbronion: i understood it, from your description as, take monthly paycheck -> convert to btc -> convert back to fiat to pay bills (e.g. a rapid one-month cycle -- not much time for btc to appreciate considerably)
22:58 billymg er, move that comma right before 'as'
22:58 thimbronion billymg: I believe bitcoin appreciates something like .3%/day
22:59 billymg ok, so you hold the btc for at most one month, if it gains in that month you're now taxed at the short term rate, which is the same as your wage rate
22:59 billymg so i'm not saying hold dollars, but rather, hold the btc forever, and only spend the dollars that are coming in
22:59 billymg the convert to btc and convert back again is what doesn't make sense
23:00 thimbronion billymg: you are taxed on profits, yes, so that means you are making money.
23:00 thimbronion regardless of the rate.
23:01 thimbronion the tax is not 100% of the profit, more like 20%.
23:01 billymg for long term, yeah
23:01 thimbronion long term is lower
23:01 billymg right, there are different brackets
23:01 billymg 20% is the max long term bracket right now
23:02 billymg short term capital gains iirc is basically just your wage bracket
23:02 thimbronion in any case, whatever balance you hold in fiat, you're missing out on .3%/day
23:02 thimbronion for whatever period of time longer than a day
23:03 thimbronion and that's assuming you spend your entire paycheck
23:03 billymg and what mats mentioned here i believe is based on your total income for that year. e.g. if you make $50k salary and then sell some asset for a profit you're already in that "kicks in at 40k" range
23:03 bitbot Logged on 2022-01-25 20:17:17 mats: long term cap gains kick in at 15% after the first 40k
23:08 billymg thimbronion: ok i see your point, basically always hold "the float" in btc because on average appreciates at .3% to usd
23:09 thimbronion billymg: yes exactly
23:09 asciilifeform if yer rapi-cycling btc in goxes -- also will eat the spread
23:09 asciilifeform (aand the volatility)
23:10 billymg asciilifeform: i think his point is that the volatility, over a long enough time frame, comes out in your favor
23:10 thimbronion asciilifeform: check out the lvl card - there's a spread, but no fees. Strike I belive has a smaller spread but lower limits.
23:10 billymg and i guess if you "lose" one month that's "capital losses"
23:11 asciilifeform likely would also need to hire a full time accountant to magick away all the 1099 bullshit 'gain' that'll go in yer dossier
23:11 thimbronion asciilifeform: I currently pay my accountant 1k/year
23:13 asciilifeform the fundamental problem w/ tax games is that they 'work until they don't'. i.e. what'll you do when tax collectors decide that you owe 20x what you've paid.
23:14 asciilifeform + interest.
23:14 thimbronion asciilifeform: will pay it off in payments. can't take my house from my ex.
23:15 asciilifeform see also naggum.
23:15 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-25 14:39:16 asciilifeform: punkman: it's, roughly, what killed naggum, for instance.
23:15 thimbronion asciilifeform: that's norway
23:16 asciilifeform and usa.
23:16 thimbronion in any case those are the rules as they stand
23:16 thimbronion retroactie tax changes are highly unpopular
23:16 asciilifeform there's a reason why the 1k/y accountant won't give you an actionable guarantee that you will ~not, under any circumstances~ get that surprise bill.
23:16 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-19 12:43:44 asciilifeform: billymg: afaik there isn't even a deterministic algo for 'i need q*x coin to buy this item priced x, q >= 1.0, cuz tax'
23:17 thimbronion asciilifeform: irs doesn't provide any guarantees about anything
23:17 asciilifeform aaha.
23:18 thimbronion also what they're gonna charge you a 200% tax?
23:18 thimbronion it's on profits
23:19 asciilifeform it's on anyffin you might've been 1099'd for
23:20 asciilifeform (which these days includes even absurdities, e.g. selling a piece of shit on ebay)
23:20 thimbronion I mean yeah you're gonna pay tax on sales of btc
23:21 thimbronion if there were gains
23:21 billymg thimbronion: is this an accurate summary, roughly, of your philosophy on this? "there's no guarantee the irs won't come and shoot your dog tomorrow, regardless of what you do, so why not try to increase your btc stack and/or lifestyle in the meantime"
23:21 thimbronion billymg: absolutely.
23:21 billymg i can see it
23:22 thimbronion if you are driving a nice car, better be paying a fuckload of taxes
23:24 * asciilifeform rather regularly gets 4-fig surprise tax bills
23:24 billymg from irs??
23:24 asciilifeform more often from state
23:25 thimbronion asciilifeform: same
23:25 billymg i've had large tax bills at the end of the year too, usually not big surprise though
23:25 thimbronion once they fucked up and actually corrected it
23:25 billymg i've had to pay the penalty for "not properly withholding" too, it amounted to jack shit
23:26 thimbronion I mean if I had a polish passport things would be different
23:26 asciilifeform what amts to will naturally vary w/ yer weight class
23:26 billymg like such a small % of the amount you "didn't properly withhold" that it's actually in your favor to pay the penalty
23:26 billymg i.e. can invest the money during the year to make up for it
23:28 billymg oh yeah, after mats was talking about binance today i got curious and looked to see if they have a "crypto credit card", they do, and here are the countries they support:
23:28 asciilifeform invest? well that's if you have magick amulet which makes the roulette come out to the colour you bet on always
23:28 billymg asciilifeform: invest in btc for example
23:28 asciilifeform and let's say you invested 6mo ago, lol, and need the fiatola nao
23:28 thimbronion index fund evven
23:29 asciilifeform << pretty typical 'anywhere but usa' list
23:29 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-25 18:28:13 billymg: oh yeah, after mats was talking about binance today i got curious and looked to see if they have a "crypto credit card", they do, and here are the countries they support:
23:29 billymg asciilifeform: no latam either, which is what stuck out to me
23:30 asciilifeform is wai eu passport costs 1m nao
23:30 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-08-16 asciilifeform: there's a reason, i guess, why eu passport is 800k.
23:30 thimbronion there will never be a wealth tax in the US
23:31 asciilifeform y'mean other than the current one ?
23:31 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-25 15:27:18 asciilifeform: we have 'wealth tax' in usa. i.e. inflation. it simply only applies to plebes
23:31 asciilifeform ( what other 'wealth tax' is there anywhere?)
23:31 thimbronion asciilifeform: no I mean a real wealth tax
23:31 thimbronion ie a tax based on an asset that you have not sold
23:31 asciilifeform what'd that look like ? 'pay 1% of that rembrandt' ?
23:31 thimbronion asciilifeform: yes
23:31 billymg asciilifeform: 1% of btc stack
23:31 asciilifeform i'm sure rubes will be found who actually register their stack and will pay
23:32 billymg re: eu passports, the first country that does what el salvador is doing but that also has a standard of living *at least* comparable to cr -- i'd probably move there
23:32 asciilifeform just not anyone w/ srs mass
23:33 thimbronion The US is in fact the biggest tax haven
23:33 asciilifeform taxes per se only apply to plebes. lizard pays % of income comparable to candy wrapper for you or i
23:34 asciilifeform and will pay 0 % of 'wealth', will offshore as much of it as req'd and remain untouchable
23:34 billymg dunno if anyone saw the michael saylor interview on tucker, but he actually goes as far in explaining the properties of bitcoin as saying "the government can put a gun to my head and take my house, but if they pull the trigger they won't get my btc"
23:34 asciilifeform the only known way historically to tax a lizard is in a cork-lined cellar, a la lenin
23:35 thimbronion putin figured it out
23:36 asciilifeform imho his success there overhyped.
23:38 bonechewer Putin's people are in league with the Western lizards
23:38 asciilifeform for that matter e.g. abramovich still cackles in london
23:38 thimbronion hope I never have to live in London
23:38 asciilifeform bonechewer: how could they not be? modern ru is run by folx w/ 1e9$'s parked in zurich, children in harvard and oxbridge
23:40 asciilifeform thimbronion: iirc d00d mostly lives on yacht in tropics, only the dough 'lives' in london
23:40 thimbronion asciilifeform: that makes more sense
23:40 bonechewer The propaganda in the West is that Putin reined those folx in and got them on board to back the Russian state. I suspect that the reality involves much more influence in the other direction as well
23:41 asciilifeform bonechewer: it's a spectacle put on for plebes in ru. to certain extent leaks into reich fishwraps
23:42 thimbronion what actually went down?
23:42 asciilifeform iirc in cn similar (tho can't comment in detail, asciilifeform dun know cn)
23:43 asciilifeform thimbronion: e.g. demonstrative dekulakization and jailing of hodorkovsky (kleptocrat, nao 'critic of putin' etc)
23:44 thimbronion Khodorkovsky didn't serve time or wat?
23:45 thimbronion Russian oil money is still net outflowing from Russia?
23:46 asciilifeform 1-2 served time, over9000 not only still on yachts but succeeded in sawing apart country, converting to yachts & cocaine century+ of plebe blood
23:46 asciilifeform phunphakt -- stalin forbade petroexport. 'we will not sell the blood of the country'
23:47 asciilifeform hrusch's conversion of su to a petrostan was '1st swallow of spring' re the sawing apart.
23:48 asciilifeform ( petrostans are inherently kleptocratic, i.e. instead of building up the kingdom, instead yer building up balances in zurich )
23:51 * bonechewer wishes Luka were more competent (link: "hipster bars continue to metastasize all over Minsk, lovingly adorned with POC portraits") but Belarus sounds okay
23:54 asciilifeform bonechewer: funnily enuff, right here in the heart of the reich asciilifeform not yet encountered the supposed 'ausweis, bitte' 'vax passport' whatever
23:54 asciilifeform must not be going to the right bars or wat.
23:55 asciilifeform bonechewer: belarus incidentally is a kind of 'sovok theme part' economically dependent on largesse from ru
23:55 asciilifeform *theme park
23:55 asciilifeform see e.g. mp's tour of the place
23:56 asciilifeform if you like crumbling hruschebas, sov-style cops & train conductors in period uniforms, etc. -- yer paradise is waiting there
23:57 asciilifeform might even land coveted job in still-functioning tractor factory, if yer a level-6 lathe man.
23:57 bonechewer yes, in particular oil acquired from ru below the world market price -- but that is in keeping with retaining it domestically the way asciilifeform seemed to approve of just now!
23:58 asciilifeform bonechewer: it's a 'muppet' rather than 'puppet' state, tho, fuhrer coquetted with west reich for many yrs, then ran crying to moscow when his 'partners' decided to set him up colour revolution
23:58 bonechewer In NYC and Boston, not only bars but museums, etc., enforce the vaxpass
23:58 asciilifeform a here museums simply closed afaik
23:58 asciilifeform already before covidiocy they were gettin' heavy on the posters & reproduction an' light on exhibits
23:59 * asciilifeform suspects sold and yachted
23:59 asciilifeform even animals in the zoo were disappearing 'temporarily'
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