Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

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02:04 thestringpuller them: "Bitcoin mining is killing the planet"; me: "why haven't you petitioned for easier access to nuclear energy" them: "that too dangerous" me: "it has the least deaths of any energy source per capita. and produces 0 carbon" them: "you are banned from this discussion"
~ 12 hours 55 minutes ~
14:59 thimbronion !ticker xbtusd
14:59 lekythion Kraken XBTUSD: 34661.00000
~ 25 minutes ~
15:25 billymg asciilifeform: this was news to me when you posted it. was there ever any discussion about merging this change into trb as a way to ditch openssl?
15:25 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 13:11:46 asciilifeform: << strangely enough, i'm not 100% certain which would win if one were to count library mass. (iirc at a certain pt prb dropped the openssl dep in favour of some ad-hoc thing, for instance.)
15:29 billymg thestringpuller: where was that discussion from? not surprising of course, the wind/solar people are like the shitcoiners of the energy industry. they're not interested in the problems, only selling their "solution"
~ 36 minutes ~
16:05 asciilifeform billymg: was discussed on numerous occasions. asciilifeform wasn't eager to crib src from known nsa stooges; mp didn't push the issue (nfi precisely why, but prolly same reason) ; nobody else admitted to giving a rat's arse re: subj.
16:09 asciilifeform fwiw asciilifeform, on erry occasion where this came up, pushed against idea of cribbing routines from prb. for what imho are quite obv. reasons.
16:09 asciilifeform 'fruit of poison tree'.
16:10 thestringpuller billymg: pretty much every "progressive" in the US will make identical argument if bitcoin is brought up; conversation is almost as predictible as what happens when you throw a chair in a crowded room
16:11 asciilifeform thestringpuller: see also.
16:11 snsabot (trilema) 2015-12-19 asciilifeform: << you know what's great? rat poison STILL WORKS even if you don't explain to the rats exactly ~how~ !
16:12 thestringpuller asciilifeform: i've been using trb as last resort bitcoin "canary warrant"; if blocks stop advancing then I know the jig is up and some power ranger somewhere has called the cops on the party
16:13 asciilifeform thestringpuller: you'll go broke replacing the pants you've filled, if doing this, trb nodes do wedge periodically
16:14 asciilifeform (not that long ago -- all of them, collectively, and we had to patch )
16:14 snsabot (asciilifeform) 2020-02-27 asciilifeform: attn trb operators: is nao running mod6's latest variant, augmented with this experimental patch (my sig thereof ) .
16:15 thestringpuller My threshold for "shit hits the fan" is 1 difficulty period, which is pretty rare for TRB to wedge on in my experience
16:15 asciilifeform thestringpuller: once falls behind 100+ blox, typically will not resync w/out manual intervention. (some folx set up cron to reset, this ~worx at the risk of blowing the db)
16:17 asciilifeform thestringpuller: are you familiar w/ 'watchglass' ?
16:17 asciilifeform ( example run. )
16:17 snsabot (asciilifeform) 2021-06-09 watchglass: Polling 17 nodes...
16:18 asciilifeform lemme know if you want your noad added to the roster.
16:18 asciilifeform atm watchglass lives in #asciilifeform and #therealbitcoin .
16:23 billymg thestringpuller: lol, i'll admit it's been a while since i've had any conversations with normies re: bitcoin. i think last time was a few years ago, and back then the typical response was "the government will just ban it"
16:23 billymg or if it was a certain special kind of retard, "etherium will overtake it cause bitcoin is old and slow"
16:24 billymg ethereum* i suppose
16:27 asciilifeform billymg: imho it'd be strange to expect 'normies' to be fond of bitcoin (or to understand wtf even is, beyond what picture volkischer beobachter paints for their consumption.) bitcoin is a cruel knife that cuts, the typical reactions are connected with this fact.
16:27 snsabot (asciilifeform) 2021-03-09 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i suspect that not all authors of such pieces are formally paid shills; rather, the subject has a strong (i suspect -- from envy) dementia-inducing effect on various folx;
16:28 thimbronion billymg: every silicon person automatically goes for eth. Because it feels like heroku.
16:28 thimbronion *silicon valley
16:29 asciilifeform thestringpuller: i thought simply because 'civilizedly' centrally-managed product w/ 1e8 loc
16:30 asciilifeform i.e. specifically constructed by vermin, for vermin
16:30 asciilifeform err, thimbronion
16:30 asciilifeform grr tab completionism
16:35 billymg << got it, i figured it had something to do with this
16:35 snsabot Logged on 2021-06-09 12:02:50 asciilifeform: billymg: was discussed on numerous occasions. asciilifeform wasn't eager to crib src from known nsa stooges; mp didn't push the issue (nfi precisely why, but prolly same reason) ; nobody else admitted to giving a rat's arse re: subj.
16:36 billymg asciilifeform: i still make the mistake of assuming normies are operating rationally, and in self interest (and i used to make this mistake a lot more)
16:39 asciilifeform billymg: the rational ones are too terrified to speak.
16:39 billymg but yes, i think they all understand on instinct what bitcoin is and it terrifies them: "we better stop talking about it, master's not gonna like this"
16:41 thimbronion asciilifeform: I don't know how many get to the stage of knowing what it actually is rather than what it looks like.
16:43 asciilifeform thimbronion: 99%+ of usg efforts against bitcoinism were specifically aimed at preventing noobs from finding out 'what really is'.
16:43 billymg thimbronion: i think this is correct. the "feels like heroku" is all they care about. if it's branded right, if the aesthetic is right, they know it's "safe and sanctioned"
16:44 * billymg knew a guy like this at previous company, being a designer he had a strong intuition for this and flipped his early $500 ETH investment to $50k on coinbase
16:45 billymg he didn't care one bit about decentralization, immutability, censorship/seizure resistance, etc.
16:48 thimbronion billymg: yeah for devs it's like: wow these api docs look pretty slick!
16:48 billymg thimbronion: heh, yep, exactly
16:49 billymg i noticed that slickness when poking around the urbit docs
16:49 asciilifeform y'know, billymg , asking 'slickness sv coder' to care about decentralization etc. is rather like expecting a mouse to ask nutrition label for the cheese in mousetrap before biting in
16:53 billymg asciilifeform: yeah, but perhaps the same cheese can be used to lure the mouse into a safe and sturdy nest instead of the trap. at least this is the theory i want to test
16:54 asciilifeform billymg: very doubtful, imho. (ever heard term 'superstimulus' ?)
16:55 billymg asciilifeform: hmm, not entirely familiar
16:55 asciilifeform not even to mention that you can't offer 'same cheese'. trb aint ever appearing on 'cnn', 'pc magazine', 'fox', etc.
16:55 billymg asciilifeform: true
16:56 asciilifeform it's a 'terrorist' product. rather like e.g. pgp prior to the betrayal of p. zimmerman and koch coming on stage
16:57 asciilifeform the seekrit usg edict about these, since the failed pgp prosecution, is, roughly : 'NO mention of $item is permitted in any plebefodder, whether print or broadcast'.
16:58 asciilifeform (phunphakt : sovok had an actual printed list of such subject matters, archaeologists found it )
16:58 snsabot (asciilifeform) 2020-09-13 asciilifeform: in wholly unrelated historical lulz : 'Перечень сведений, запрещенных к опубликованию в открытой печати, передачах по радио и телевидению' ('catalogue of facts prohibited from publication in open press, radio and television broadcasts.') seekrit handbook for censors actually published in sovok f
17:01 billymg asciilifeform: aha, that bolsters my theory about why trb not bothered, it's not mentioned in "pleb fodder"
17:01 snsabot (asciilifeform) 2020-06-08 billymg: asciilifeform: i think there might be a common element between hassids (and amish, etc.) carrying on unmolested, and e.g. alf not being gassed -- members of the herd are not dropping out of school/office life to go join
17:02 billymg but i suspect if anyone here managed to mainstream some site enough for it to be then considered pleb fodder, would meet some resistance
17:02 asciilifeform billymg: usg learned from last round of 'bothering' (pgp trial) , where exact opposite effect of the one orig. desired
17:03 billymg asciilifeform: ah, right, ye old "streisand effect"
17:03 billymg i meant more "bothering" in the hastings' benz sense than through the courts and press
17:04 asciilifeform billymg: observe that the mistake was never repeated. instead there is 1e7 derps employed to manufacture faux-bitcoinclient, faux-noob-guides, faux-'explanations', misc. faux-cryptoalgos, etc
17:05 asciilifeform billymg: for whatever reason, hastings treatment is apparently expensive and used sparingly. (for all i know -- the ~effective~ twin of tmsr was hastings'd and we simply never knew..! )
17:08 asciilifeform (upstack -- this kind of brag imho is quite lulzy -- 50k usd, after tax collectors finish with it, won't even buy a toyota..)
17:08 snsabot Logged on 2021-06-09 12:41:40 billymg: knew a guy like this at previous company, being a designer he had a strong intuition for this and flipped his early $500 ETH investment to $50k on coinbase
17:08 billymg asciilifeform: lol right, fell in the "short term" bucket too
17:08 asciilifeform it's hilarious, imho, when folx brag about winning pocket change.
17:09 billymg keep in mind this was mid 2017, so if he'd played a round this time (with an NFT or whatever) would likely be $150k
17:09 billymg but still, pocket change
17:12 asciilifeform 1 of the interesting, imho, things about hyperinflation is that just about errybody's naive intuitions about 'what's a respectable sack of dough' are wrong.
17:12 asciilifeform at any given time.
17:12 billymg asciilifeform: this is my first time living though a hyperinflation event, so i agree it's disorienting
17:16 billymg i just read the "when money dies" book on the weimar version of it, it had a lot of interesting details on how the events played out day-to-day
17:17 billymg for instance, then too, erryone was "playing the market" and becoming "rich" overnight (and losing it the next day)
17:18 asciilifeform billymg: modern version is moar subtle (i.e. reich attempts to ensure that printolade ends up 'where supposed to', inflating financial instruments, real estate, etc. which can then be taxed for 'gains', effectively confiscating a chunk in favour of the crown, and rinse & repeat, 'goto 10') rather than uncontrolled corkscrew
17:19 billymg more interesting was the divide that built up between the rural families and the city dwellers. the former of whom started to refuse to deliver food in exchange for the play money
17:20 asciilifeform billymg: this played out in su rapidly in '18; ended with requisitions by force of arms, and eventually kolhoz
17:20 asciilifeform in usa it played out, to conclusion, during the reign of fdr.
17:21 asciilifeform eventual end was similar to su's, but 'high tech', ~all agro biz under control of a handful of usg-approved monopolies, and largely automated.
17:21 asciilifeform (the latter had to wait to '80s, but eventually.)
17:24 * billymg is hoping for a south american renaissance
17:25 billymg and hoping that the properties and dynamics of bitcoin make it different from previous attempts
17:25 asciilifeform billymg: afaik is simply another captive chinesium market. (with, bonus, 200% import duty for non-chinesium, and ~0 native industry, not even to the degree of peron's argentines)
17:26 asciilifeform that'd be 'white' south amer. the rest, afaik, solid agroshithole from ocean to ocean.
17:27 billymg asciilifeform: yeah, was only referring to the civilized side. i think it has the potential to be a safe haven for westerners to escape to
17:27 asciilifeform billymg: for some value of 'westerner' and some value of 'escape', i guess already ?
17:27 asciilifeform billymg: have you visited BingoBoingostan ?
17:28 billymg asciilifeform: i have not yet, i wanted to this summer but i was naive enough to assume that the various travel restrictions would have been lifted by now
17:29 asciilifeform i rec to visit. if yer the type who only needs sunlight, pen and paper, prolly would already find usable.
17:29 asciilifeform their real estate is no less inflated than in east usa, however.
17:30 billymg asciilifeform: costa rica is similar i think, in that sense
17:30 asciilifeform (a global, more or less, plague. the only places where not -- are e.g. eureich, where political prohibitions on foreign devils purchasing, e.g. timisoara where 50k$ mansions)
17:31 * asciilifeform not been to cr, afaik it's 1 of those places where i'd need own airstrip etc. to stay reliably in gear
17:31 billymg asciilifeform: nah, you can get anything you want from lulazon
17:32 billymg final price is simply 2x whatever the list is
17:32 billymg it's not terrible
17:32 billymg i order stuff and it gets here in a week or two
17:32 asciilifeform similar in uy. at one point i even ordered replacement ssd's directly shipped to BingoBoingo
17:32 asciilifeform ended up ~3x the sticker price.
17:33 asciilifeform iirc 3wks from button push to uncrating.
17:34 asciilifeform if you do enuff of this kind of thing, however, it'll surely wipe out whatever dough yer saving by living in the jungles.
17:34 asciilifeform most egregiously, if you want something that can't be simply packed into a crate. say, a rack at a dc w/ 1G/s pipe.
17:35 billymg asciilifeform: yeah, it's a trade off
17:36 billymg btw the el salvador bill apparently passed, and includes a requirement that any "economic agent" accepts btc
17:37 asciilifeform hilarious, if were taken literally
17:37 asciilifeform (picture trying to buy banana from street cart..)
17:37 billymg lol, saw video on twitter of exactly this!
17:38 * asciilifeform wonders whether they bothered to try to specify what, precisely, ~is~ bitcoin.. for the purpose
17:38 billymg was with pseudo bitcoin (lightning) on a mobile phone, but still
17:38 asciilifeform lol
17:38 billymg asciilifeform: the way their president talks about it i think he knows exactly what it is
17:38 billymg so it's a ballsy move
17:38 asciilifeform billymg: did text of the bill include the genesis block & trb src? i'd suspect not, lol
17:40 billymg no, sure, but the same way that the bad guys sell the covid lockdowns as "for your safety" the good guys can sell bitcoin as "to uplift the unbanked" or whatever
17:40 asciilifeform naturally, and maybe by 'bitcoin' meant shiny brass medals with the B logo..
17:41 billymg lol
17:45 thestringpuller billymg: re eth - I always thought Counterparty (XCP built on top of BTC) would pave the way for tokens, but the ICO scam band was just a natural evolution of GLBSE and the worx
17:45 asciilifeform thestringpuller: what are 'tokens' in this context ?
17:45 thestringpuller asciilifeform: assets/documents
17:46 thestringpuller stock certificate for instance
17:46 asciilifeform thestringpuller: i.e. 'coloured coins'(tm) ?
17:46 asciilifeform (did an actual use case materialize for such thing? iirc was scamola from day 1 to finish)
17:46 thestringpuller yes XCP is just colored coins, but never took off due to many reasons
17:47 thestringpuller scam not because of technology but because of people involved
17:47 asciilifeform thestringpuller: imho bolting promisetronic instruments to bitcoin has approx. as much merit as the 1900s autos with reins instead of steering wheel/pedals
17:54 thestringpuller wouldn't that more be a function of the human nature behind it? still similar problems of contractual obligations whether bitcoin exists or not; car still needs roads and road signs
17:54 asciilifeform thestringpuller: do you recall the old discussion re 'protocol' vs 'promise' technologies ?
17:57 asciilifeform imho is a rather clear distinction. e.g. there ~is~ a nonzero chance that you won't be able to use http tomorrow -- asteroid might strike, or nukefest fells all extant www or underlying structure, etc. but at any rate would require massive calamity, or mass psychosis spontaneously. this -- 'protocol'. 'promise' otoh is when you're counting on some forum derp to actually pay dividends to you,
17:57 asciilifeform simply because you 'bought coloured coin' etc.
17:57 thimbronion The problem is with enforcement. You may assign me your cow on the blockchain, but I can't force delivery of the cow without state involvement. This is not a problem with Bitcoin. You might as well use mysql to record the cow tx.
17:58 asciilifeform i wrote about this in 2012.
17:58 asciilifeform thimbronion: observe that if yer using bitcoin as it was designed to be used, you dun need to 'enforce' anything at all.
17:59 thestringpuller sure, but there is a non-zero chance if I send you bitcoin for agreed upon cow you won't ship it to me
17:59 thimbronion thestringpuller: but bitcoin delivery is guaranteed!
17:59 asciilifeform the solution, such as one exists at all, is wot; rather than oddball extensions to bitcoin.
17:59 thestringpuller true; the counterparty delivery - hence the importance of WoT
18:00 thestringpuller but the counterparty delivery isn't*
18:00 thimbronion thestringpuller: nor is it with colored coins so what's the point?
18:00 asciilifeform afaik 100% of 'bolt on xyz weird to bitcoin' to date has been specifically to fraudulently appropriate the flavour of actual bitcoin (which worx) to promote promisetronium (which not simply 'not worx', but is conceived as a fraudulent scheme from day 1 to relieve morons of their dough)
18:02 asciilifeform thimbronion: not intending to insult, but were you by any chance in a coma for past 7y? or similar? or why else regarding as 'fresh' crackpotteries which were debunked as cheap scamola almost decade ago..
18:03 thimbronion asciilifeform: what am I regarding as fresh?
18:03 asciilifeform 'tokens' etc
18:04 thimbronion Sorry if I gave that impression. I've known about colored coins since they were proposed.
18:04 asciilifeform grr, q was for thestringpuller
18:04 asciilifeform apologies thimbronion
18:04 thimbronion ah no worries
18:10 thestringpuller asciilifeform: was merely in response to earlier thread on eth; always viewed eth as trying to solve a problem that doesn't quite exist
18:11 asciilifeform thestringpuller: the 'problem' the ethertards were (and are) trying to 'solve', is bitcoin.
18:12 asciilifeform (see e.g. )
18:12 snsabot (asciilifeform) 2020-10-22 asciilifeform: they were/are simply an instrument of the 'shell game' built into ethereum. primarily to complicate the matter of answering q's e.g. 'how much coin is there?' 'to whom does this-here coin belong?' but also to help in organizing 'jam tomorrow' mechanized chumpatrons of all types.
18:17 thimbronion Actually am looking forward to thestringpullers responses.
18:18 thimbronion With bitcoin and crypto currencies I always have to be very careful as to whether I'm not getting something because it's dumb, like eth, or because I'm dumb like diff eq.
18:22 asciilifeform thimbronion: fortunately there's a very simple shortcut which worx 100% : learn to recognize the usg shills (and their useful idiots) , the pyramid artists and ~their~ useful idiots, etc. then you don't actually need to get to the bottom of how 100% of the moving parts in the bullshit schemes work.
18:22 asciilifeform (esp. since they'll change, regularly, on a whim of the perpetrator, like eth changed in answer to dao implosion)
18:22 thestringpuller asciilifeform: In The Wire you start with an exploration of the drug war and its obvious consequences. But then each season you climb the ladder to see the same pattern. I think the key takeaway then in 2008 was the same in 2014 with MtGox "was it merely one component of a larger chumpatron?"
18:24 thestringpuller One interesting scenario explored was that of "Hamsterdam"; it obviously lowered the homicide count, but was incompatible with the larger chumpatron. Given Baltimore is in worse shape than when that show concluded one must wonder "are the homicides by design?"
18:25 asciilifeform hamsterdam??
18:26 asciilifeform thimbronion: upstack, see also elsewhere re subj.
18:26 snsabot (trilema) 2018-06-12 asciilifeform: matters technical and political are not in reality separable.
18:26 snsabot (trilema) 2018-07-22 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: one of the things that never ceases to fascinate me re physics crackpots, is how rarely they grasp the sheer 'unreasonable effectiveness' of making ~political~ , rather than simply technical, cuts . ( observe, i dun need to read , much less attempt to individually refute, errything the strings people shit out -- for the same reason i dun need to read gavin's code . )
18:26 snsabot (trilema) 2018-11-29 asciilifeform: zx2c4: weren't you here last yr for a 'the technical cannot be separated from the political' and 'if program+all accessories doesn't Fit In Head, it is garbage, not proof' thread ?
18:27 thestringpuller asciilifeform: (spoilers inside)
18:28 * asciilifeform not seen the film
18:28 asciilifeform linked description seems to match ~actual~ bmore, such as the 1 asciilifeform visited on numerous occasions, however.
18:32 thestringpuller baltimore seems like a place you escape, not visit
18:33 asciilifeform thestringpuller: asciilifeform was shopping for affordable (5fig!) buildings there.
18:37 thestringpuller i imagine even the condemned crack houses go for 6 figures now
18:37 asciilifeform now yes. this was in '16-17.
18:38 thestringpuller glad asciilifeform returned safe and not full of bullet holes
18:39 asciilifeform thestringpuller: thrd. and see also photo-tour.
18:39 snsabot (trilema) 2016-07-02 asciilifeform: it wasn't condemned
18:40 asciilifeform thestringpuller: you may find odd, but molestation by orcs was not on asciilifeform's list of gripes re the visits.
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